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 What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff
 SuseJ772 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 914 posts, RR: 1Posted Thu Dec 13 2007 17:18:27 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 25279 times:

 I saw the picture below and maybe it is the angle, but it just seemed like a really extreme initial take off angle. My first question is, what angle do you think this plane is at? And then second of all, what is a normal initial take off angle? View Large View MediumPhoto © Markus Wisler
 Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 MTYFREAK From Mexico, joined Apr 2004, 377 posts, RR: 2 Reply 1, posted Thu Dec 13 2007 19:25:26 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 25230 times:

 Quoting SuseJ772 (Thread starter): what is a normal initial take off angle?

10 degrees if I'm not mistaken,

Regards

 Only here for the beer...
 Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17628 posts, RR: 65 Reply 2, posted Thu Dec 13 2007 19:43:19 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 25229 times:

 Quoting SuseJ772 (Thread starter): My first question is, what angle do you think this plane is at?

25-30 degrees?

 Quoting SuseJ772 (Thread starter): And then second of all, what is a normal initial take off angle

It depends. Rotation angle is somewhat predicated on avoiding tailstrikes, and of course this depends on the aircraft. Once off the ground, the pilots aim for an airspeed target, not a specific angle. The angle which gives the required airspeed varies depending on weight.

[Edited 2007-12-13 19:43:38]

 "There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 Vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 12075 posts, RR: 24 Reply 3, posted Thu Dec 13 2007 19:54:49 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 25219 times:

 Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):25-30 degrees?

In my non-expert opinion, I'd put it more at 15-20 degrees.

I think in a typical rotation, an airplane would be aiming for around 10 degrees (I seem to recall someone saying that in the MD-11, you rotate up to 11 degrees). Given how low this airplane still seems to be, I doubt it would have reached 25-30 yet. I don't know if commercial airplanes with passengers even climb out that steeply - but like I said, I'm not an expert.

 I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 Avt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2132 posts, RR: 4 Reply 4, posted Thu Dec 13 2007 20:46:37 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 25191 times:

 Typical would be in the 10-15 degree range for most aircraft I've worked on.
 KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6833 posts, RR: 3 Reply 5, posted Thu Dec 13 2007 20:51:19 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 25190 times:

 Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):25-30 degrees?

Probably not that extreme, as 30 degrees is the limit for a pitch maneuver being considered "aerobatic." Exceed that limit, and everyone on board would have to be wearing parachutes  .

I'm sure the FBW envelope protection in the Triple Seven would kick in, too...although in a Boeing, you can still overpower it (using arm strength)   The FBW system probably also has tail strike protection during the takeoff roll.

 Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 Tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12710 posts, RR: 78 Reply 6, posted Thu Dec 13 2007 20:57:10 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 25183 times:

 Quoting KELPkid (Reply 5):The FBW system probably also has tail strike protection during the takeoff roll.

All 777-300ER's have tailstrike protection, as far as I know. They actually have a special actuator on the gear to tilt the gear near the end of rotation to hike the fuselage up that extra little bit to provide tail clearance.

Tom.

 JetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2717 posts, RR: 52 Reply 7, posted Thu Dec 13 2007 21:24:30 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 25169 times:

 Quoting SuseJ772 (Thread starter):

I think the camera angle may make it appear to be a steeper angle than it really is.

Regards, JetMech

 JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
 SuseJ772 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 914 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted Thu Dec 13 2007 22:19:28 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 25135 times:

 Quoting MTYFREAK (Reply 1):10 degrees if I'm not mistaken,

 Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 3):I'd put it more at 15-20 degrees

 Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):25-30 degrees

I was thinking along these lines too Starlion. Given the only people on my RU list are you, SlamClick and PhilSquare, I'll trust you until one of them contradict you.    Just kidding everybody. I am glad to hear all your perspectives.

 Quoting JetMech (Reply 7):I think the camera angle may make it appear to be a steeper angle than it really is.

Interesting. I hadn't thought of that.

 Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 CptSpeaking From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 639 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted Thu Dec 13 2007 22:37:10 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 25133 times:

I'd have to agree with the optical illusion, and I can definitely say it isn't pitched 30 degrees nose-up...

Check out this...the back of the fuselage seems to be parallel with the runway...similar to the photo below, in which the angle doesn't seem so great...

 View Large View MediumPhoto © Markus Wisler View Large View MediumPhoto © Gerry Stegmeier

I did think the same thing at first though... "Holy crap!!"

 ...and don't call me Shirley!!
 PhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted Thu Dec 13 2007 22:41:11 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 25125 times:

 Quoting SuseJ772 (Thread starter):I saw the picture below and maybe it is the angle, but it just seemed like a really extreme initial take off angle. My first question is, what angle do you think this plane is at? And then second of all, what is a normal initial take off angle?

Given it's a departure out of ZRH and it would be fairly heavy, the most likely attitude is between 13-15 degrees. That would be the "normal" attitude.

There are some other photos of aircraft departing out of various airports that have a very extreme looking pitch attitude, LAX is one that comes to mind. It's just the lense used and the camera angle that gives the "extreme" impression.

 Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17628 posts, RR: 65 Reply 11, posted Fri Dec 14 2007 00:20:50 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 25092 times:

 Quoting SuseJ772 (Reply 8):I was thinking along these lines too Starlion. Given the only people on my RU list are you, SlamClick and PhilSquare, I'll trust you until one of them contradict you

Well, Philsquares just contradicted me.

There was a reason I put a question mark at the end. Total guesstimate.

 "There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 PhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted Fri Dec 14 2007 00:36:32 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 25084 times:

 Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):Well, Philsquares just contradicted me. There was a reason I put a question mark at the end. Total guesstimate

Not a correction, just an informed guesstimate!

 BoeingOnFinal From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 476 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted Fri Dec 14 2007 00:41:50 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 25090 times:

 When talking about "extreme looking" angles, this photo comes to mind: View Large View MediumPhoto © Daniel Werner People who do not know much about aviation could easily guess this to me 45Ã‚Âº++ attitude, as there are no angle perception on the background in this particular picture. Same applies with the picture in question, although not as extreme.
 norwegianpilot.blogspot.com
 Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17628 posts, RR: 65 Reply 14, posted Fri Dec 14 2007 01:54:21 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 25070 times:

 Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 12): Not a correction, just an informed guesstimate!

Also known as a WAG.

 "There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 CosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2268 posts, RR: 6 Reply 15, posted Fri Dec 14 2007 04:33:16 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 25013 times:

 Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 3):(I seem to recall someone saying that in the MD-11, you rotate up to 11 degrees).

The MD-11 will hit the tail at about 11 deg. however that's more a player on landing. On t/o a nice 2 deg/sec rotation will have you off the grd. and still rotating up to a V2 + 10 climb angle. Heavy this may be 17-18 deg and light up to the max of about 25 deg. Last week I got to see both ; CDG-FRA with 48,000lb of fuel and we held 20-25 deg all the way to 10,000' 48 hrs later FRA-MEM was a 630.5 t/o and 17 deg was it.

 Vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 12075 posts, RR: 24 Reply 16, posted Fri Dec 14 2007 08:17:44 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 24915 times:

 Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 15):The MD-11 will hit the tail at about 11 deg. however that's more a player on landing. On t/o a nice 2 deg/sec rotation will have you off the grd. and still rotating up to a V2 + 10 climb angle. Heavy this may be 17-18 deg and light up to the max of about 25 deg. Last week I got to see both ; CDG-FRA with 48,000lb of fuel and we held 20-25 deg all the way to 10,000' 48 hrs later FRA-MEM was a 630.5 t/o and 17 deg was it.

Hmmm, OK, thanks for the info. I probably got confused as to what I was remembering.

 I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 Timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 7211 posts, RR: 7 Reply 17, posted Fri Dec 14 2007 12:24:41 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 24794 times:

 If we knew what time he took the pic, we could calculate the sun's azimuth and altitude-- and we can calculate the runway azimuth. Boeing's drawings give the shape of the triangle formed by the three gears; compare that with their shadows and seems like we ought to be able to get the actual inclination of that triangle to within a few degrees.
 BAe146QT From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2006, 996 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted Fri Dec 14 2007 12:58:19 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 24764 times:

 Interesting, and rather steep... View Large View MediumPhoto © Michael Van Bosch
 Todos mis dominÃ³s son totalmente pegajosos
 Qslinger From India, joined Apr 2006, 273 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted Sat Dec 15 2007 00:47:57 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 24614 times:

 Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):25-30 degrees?

Looks like it..

 Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 6):They actually have a special actuator on the gear to tilt the gear near the end of rotation to hike the fuselage up that extra little bit to provide tail clearance.

Wow..didn't know that...How does this system work!!??

 Raj Koona
 Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17628 posts, RR: 65 Reply 20, posted Sat Dec 15 2007 04:37:23 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 24572 times:

 Quoting Qslinger (Reply 19):Wow..didn't know that...How does this system work!!??

It keeps the bogie rigid so that the aircraft sits on the last wheel pair. Otherwise the bogie would rotate around it's axle and the aircraft would rest on all the wheel pairs. This allows a higher rotation angle.

 "There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 JetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2717 posts, RR: 52 Reply 21, posted Sat Dec 15 2007 09:36:47 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 24503 times:

 Quoting Qslinger (Reply 19):Wow..didn't know that...How does this system work!!??

You can see the actuator on the forward part of the gear leg in this photo.

View Large View Medium

Photo © Jet City Aviation Photography

Regards, JetMech

 JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
 Tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12710 posts, RR: 78 Reply 22, posted Sat Dec 15 2007 16:08:08 UTC (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 24413 times:

 Quoting Qslinger (Reply 19):Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 6): They actually have a special actuator on the gear to tilt the gear near the end of rotation to hike the fuselage up that extra little bit to provide tail clearance. Wow..didn't know that...How does this system work!!??

As Starlionblue and JetMech note above, it's hooked between the oleo strut and the front of the bogie. In Boeing speak, it's the truck positioning actuator. It's not an actively controlled system, the actuator is just hydraulically biased to want to pull the front of the bogie up. With full weight on the gear the actuator is overpowered and the bogie sits flat. During rotation, as the weight comes off, the actuator pulls the gear to ~15 degrees up tilt and the oleo extends. This hikes the airplane up on the back axle near the end of rotation, which provides a little extra clearance. When the MLG stow cycle beings, the actuator bias flips around and tips the bogie ~5 degrees down in preparation for retraction.

Tom.

 Silver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 5071 posts, RR: 22 Reply 23, posted Mon Dec 17 2007 19:11:42 UTC (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 24154 times: AIRLINERS.NET CREWPHOTO SCREENER

 Quoting JetMech (Reply 7):I think the camera angle may make it appear to be a steeper angle than it really is.

We go over this every time a photo like this appears in the database.

 ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 Timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 7211 posts, RR: 7 Reply 24, posted Tue Dec 18 2007 10:52:54 UTC (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 24067 times:

 Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 23):We go over this every time

Well, yes, somebody says it every time, but nobody ever "goes over it". In any case, you agree the SQ 777 is pitched up steeper than usual-- it isn't all due to "camera angle"?

 25 CosmicCruiser : I wouldn't say "steeper than usual" cause I say the pitch will be "normal" for those conditions up to the max which I would guess using most other la
 26 Silver1SWA : No, this topic pops up every time a photo like this appears and is discussed to death. It's not that every photographer that has captured a takeoff f
 27 Timz : Like I said, it's never discussed, let alone discussed to death. People always say but no one ever says which angle they're talking about, or how man
 28 Silver1SWA : Um, I'm talking about discussions involving claims the the aircraft must be in an extreme angle. My point is, every time this kind of photo enters th
 29 Chksix : Isn't 20 degrees deck angle the max allowed during climb out? I know it is for the 737...
 30 CosmicCruiser : See my post #25 Most go any where from 22deg (best I remember for Dc-10) up to about 25-26deg for MD-11. True you have to light to see those attitude
 31 CosmicCruiser : I meant to add this to my last post... Granted the angle does look pretty wild but you have to understand that the crew will rotate the jet up to a fl
 32 Starlionblue : Indeed. Pitch is derived from weight and desired IAS. After rotation, there is no set angle.
 33 Metroliner : Hi Starlionblue! This isn't strictly true - you have target speeds for flap retraction etc. and might have to maintain less than 250kts under 10000',
 34 Metroliner : Argh, it took me so long to post the last one (I got confused with the quotes   ) but yes - that is half-right. No set angle once the sufficient cli
 35 CosmicCruiser : True most jets do the same however I've always seen that, as you say, the "set" pitch angle is for tailstrike avoidance, etc I've never ever really s
 36 Metroliner : Hi CosmicCruiser, The reason I said it was because in the 737 manual I have it states that the initial pitch command after 80kts is 15deg nose up. You
 37 Starlionblue : I know we both agree in essence. However I am wondering about your last sentence here. How can you keep it at V2+20kts with a set pitch without movin
 38 Metroliner : This made me laugh out loud ! V2 + 20kts is the target speed whilst at 15deg pitch. Once you've got that speed, adjust pitch to maintain that speed a
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