Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff  
User currently offlineSuseJ772 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 794 posts, RR: 1
Posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 15402 times:

I saw the picture below and maybe it is the angle, but it just seemed like a really extreme initial take off angle. My first question is, what angle do you think this plane is at? And then second of all, what is a normal initial take off angle?


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Markus Wisler




Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMTYFREAK From Mexico, joined Apr 2004, 375 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 15353 times:



Quoting SuseJ772 (Thread starter):
what is a normal initial take off angle?

10 degrees if I'm not mistaken,


Regards  Smile  Smile



Only here for the beer...
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 15349 times:

Quoting SuseJ772 (Thread starter):
My first question is, what angle do you think this plane is at?

25-30 degrees?

Quoting SuseJ772 (Thread starter):
And then second of all, what is a normal initial take off angle

It depends. Rotation angle is somewhat predicated on avoiding tailstrikes, and of course this depends on the aircraft. Once off the ground, the pilots aim for an airspeed target, not a specific angle. The angle which gives the required airspeed varies depending on weight.

[Edited 2007-12-13 19:43:38]


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9398 posts, RR: 27
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 15338 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
25-30 degrees?

In my non-expert opinion, I'd put it more at 15-20 degrees.

I think in a typical rotation, an airplane would be aiming for around 10 degrees (I seem to recall someone saying that in the MD-11, you rotate up to 11 degrees). Given how low this airplane still seems to be, I doubt it would have reached 25-30 yet. I don't know if commercial airplanes with passengers even climb out that steeply - but like I said, I'm not an expert.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineAvt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2132 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 15313 times:

Typical would be in the 10-15 degree range for most aircraft I've worked on.

User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6264 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 15311 times:



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
25-30 degrees?

Probably not that extreme, as 30 degrees is the limit for a pitch maneuver being considered "aerobatic." Exceed that limit, and everyone on board would have to be wearing parachutes Big grin .

I'm sure the FBW envelope protection in the Triple Seven would kick in, too...although in a Boeing, you can still overpower it (using arm strength)  Wink The FBW system probably also has tail strike protection during the takeoff roll.



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 15304 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 5):
The FBW system probably also has tail strike protection during the takeoff roll.

All 777-300ER's have tailstrike protection, as far as I know. They actually have a special actuator on the gear to tilt the gear near the end of rotation to hike the fuselage up that extra little bit to provide tail clearance.

Tom.


User currently offlineJetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2636 posts, RR: 53
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 15291 times:



Quoting SuseJ772 (Thread starter):

I think the camera angle may make it appear to be a steeper angle than it really is.

Regards, JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlineSuseJ772 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 794 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 15258 times:



Quoting MTYFREAK (Reply 1):
10 degrees if I'm not mistaken,



Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 3):
I'd put it more at 15-20 degrees



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
25-30 degrees

I was thinking along these lines too Starlion. Given the only people on my RU list are you, SlamClick and PhilSquare, I'll trust you until one of them contradict you.  wink  Just kidding everybody. I am glad to hear all your perspectives.

Quoting JetMech (Reply 7):
I think the camera angle may make it appear to be a steeper angle than it really is.

Interesting. I hadn't thought of that.



Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
User currently offlineCptSpeaking From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 639 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 15253 times:

I'd have to agree with the optical illusion, and I can definitely say it isn't pitched 30 degrees nose-up...

Check out this...the back of the fuselage seems to be parallel with the runway...similar to the photo below, in which the angle doesn't seem so great...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Markus Wisler
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gerry Stegmeier



I did think the same thing at first though... "Holy crap!!"  biggrin 

Your CptSpeaking



...and don't call me Shirley!!
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 15245 times:



Quoting SuseJ772 (Thread starter):
I saw the picture below and maybe it is the angle, but it just seemed like a really extreme initial take off angle. My first question is, what angle do you think this plane is at? And then second of all, what is a normal initial take off angle?

Given it's a departure out of ZRH and it would be fairly heavy, the most likely attitude is between 13-15 degrees. That would be the "normal" attitude.

There are some other photos of aircraft departing out of various airports that have a very extreme looking pitch attitude, LAX is one that comes to mind. It's just the lense used and the camera angle that gives the "extreme" impression.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 15214 times:



Quoting SuseJ772 (Reply 8):
I was thinking along these lines too Starlion. Given the only people on my RU list are you, SlamClick and PhilSquare, I'll trust you until one of them contradict you

Well, Philsquares just contradicted me.  Smile

There was a reason I put a question mark at the end. Total guesstimate.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 15207 times:



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
Well, Philsquares just contradicted me.

There was a reason I put a question mark at the end. Total guesstimate

Not a correction, just an informed guesstimate!


User currently offlineBoeingOnFinal From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 476 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 15211 times:

When talking about "extreme looking" angles, this photo comes to mind:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Daniel Werner



People who do not know much about aviation could easily guess this to me 45º++ attitude, as there are no angle perception on the background in this particular picture.

Same applies with the picture in question, although not as extreme.



norwegianpilot.blogspot.com
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 15191 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 12):

Not a correction, just an informed guesstimate!

Also known as a WAG.  Wink



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2254 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 15135 times:



Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 3):
(I seem to recall someone saying that in the MD-11, you rotate up to 11 degrees).

The MD-11 will hit the tail at about 11 deg. however that's more a player on landing. On t/o a nice 2 deg/sec rotation will have you off the grd. and still rotating up to a V2 + 10 climb angle. Heavy this may be 17-18 deg and light up to the max of about 25 deg. Last week I got to see both ; CDG-FRA with 48,000lb of fuel and we held 20-25 deg all the way to 10,000' 48 hrs later FRA-MEM was a 630.5 t/o and 17 deg was it.


User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9398 posts, RR: 27
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 15037 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 15):
The MD-11 will hit the tail at about 11 deg. however that's more a player on landing. On t/o a nice 2 deg/sec rotation will have you off the grd. and still rotating up to a V2 + 10 climb angle. Heavy this may be 17-18 deg and light up to the max of about 25 deg. Last week I got to see both ; CDG-FRA with 48,000lb of fuel and we held 20-25 deg all the way to 10,000' 48 hrs later FRA-MEM was a 630.5 t/o and 17 deg was it.

Hmmm, OK, thanks for the info. I probably got confused as to what I was remembering.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6708 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 14916 times:

If we knew what time he took the pic, we could calculate the sun's azimuth and altitude-- and we can calculate the runway azimuth. Boeing's drawings give the shape of the triangle formed by the three gears; compare that with their shadows and seems like we ought to be able to get the actual inclination of that triangle to within a few degrees.

User currently offlineBAe146QT From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2006, 996 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 14886 times:

Interesting, and rather steep...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Michael Van Bosch




Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
User currently offlineQslinger From India, joined Apr 2006, 258 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 14736 times:



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
25-30 degrees?

Looks like it..

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 6):
They actually have a special actuator on the gear to tilt the gear near the end of rotation to hike the fuselage up that extra little bit to provide tail clearance.

Wow..didn't know that...How does this system work!!??



Raj Koona
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 14694 times:



Quoting Qslinger (Reply 19):
Wow..didn't know that...How does this system work!!??

It keeps the bogie rigid so that the aircraft sits on the last wheel pair. Otherwise the bogie would rotate around it's axle and the aircraft would rest on all the wheel pairs. This allows a higher rotation angle.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineJetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2636 posts, RR: 53
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 14625 times:



Quoting Qslinger (Reply 19):
Wow..didn't know that...How does this system work!!??

You can see the actuator on the forward part of the gear leg in this photo.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jet City Aviation Photography



Regards, JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 14535 times:



Quoting Qslinger (Reply 19):
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 6):
They actually have a special actuator on the gear to tilt the gear near the end of rotation to hike the fuselage up that extra little bit to provide tail clearance.

Wow..didn't know that...How does this system work!!??

As Starlionblue and JetMech note above, it's hooked between the oleo strut and the front of the bogie. In Boeing speak, it's the truck positioning actuator. It's not an actively controlled system, the actuator is just hydraulically biased to want to pull the front of the bogie up. With full weight on the gear the actuator is overpowered and the bogie sits flat. During rotation, as the weight comes off, the actuator pulls the gear to ~15 degrees up tilt and the oleo extends. This hikes the airplane up on the back axle near the end of rotation, which provides a little extra clearance. When the MLG stow cycle beings, the actuator bias flips around and tips the bogie ~5 degrees down in preparation for retraction.

Tom.


User currently offlineSilver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4737 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 14276 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting JetMech (Reply 7):
I think the camera angle may make it appear to be a steeper angle than it really is.

 checkmark  checkmark  We go over this every time a photo like this appears in the database.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6708 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 14189 times:



Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 23):
We go over this every time

Well, yes, somebody says it every time, but nobody ever "goes over it". In any case, you agree the SQ 777 is pitched up steeper than usual-- it isn't all due to "camera angle"?


25 CosmicCruiser : I wouldn't say "steeper than usual" cause I say the pitch will be "normal" for those conditions up to the max which I would guess using most other la
26 Silver1SWA : No, this topic pops up every time a photo like this appears and is discussed to death. It's not that every photographer that has captured a takeoff f
27 Timz : Like I said, it's never discussed, let alone discussed to death. People always say but no one ever says which angle they're talking about, or how man
28 Silver1SWA : Um, I'm talking about discussions involving claims the the aircraft must be in an extreme angle. My point is, every time this kind of photo enters th
29 Chksix : Isn't 20 degrees deck angle the max allowed during climb out? I know it is for the 737...
30 CosmicCruiser : See my post #25 Most go any where from 22deg (best I remember for Dc-10) up to about 25-26deg for MD-11. True you have to light to see those attitude
31 CosmicCruiser : I meant to add this to my last post... Granted the angle does look pretty wild but you have to understand that the crew will rotate the jet up to a fl
32 Starlionblue : Indeed. Pitch is derived from weight and desired IAS. After rotation, there is no set angle.
33 Post contains images Metroliner : Hi Starlionblue! This isn't strictly true - you have target speeds for flap retraction etc. and might have to maintain less than 250kts under 10000',
34 Post contains images Metroliner : Argh, it took me so long to post the last one (I got confused with the quotes   ) but yes - that is half-right. No set angle once the sufficient cli
35 CosmicCruiser : True most jets do the same however I've always seen that, as you say, the "set" pitch angle is for tailstrike avoidance, etc I've never ever really s
36 Post contains images Metroliner : Hi CosmicCruiser, The reason I said it was because in the 737 manual I have it states that the initial pitch command after 80kts is 15deg nose up. You
37 Post contains images Starlionblue : I know we both agree in essence. However I am wondering about your last sentence here. How can you keep it at V2+20kts with a set pitch without movin
38 Post contains images Metroliner : This made me laugh out loud ! V2 + 20kts is the target speed whilst at 15deg pitch. Once you've got that speed, adjust pitch to maintain that speed a
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
What Is The Range Of A Plane Radio? posted Mon Apr 17 2006 19:49:51 by Lenbrazil
What Is The Point Of Seats Fwd During Takeoff? posted Wed Jan 14 2004 07:26:31 by KBUF737
What Is The Effect Of Rain On Jet Engines? posted Sun Feb 25 2007 23:03:32 by JAM747
What Is The Purpose Of The Flight Director On AP? posted Sat Nov 19 2005 21:31:03 by Julesmusician
What Is The Function Of "prop Sync"? posted Thu Aug 25 2005 22:48:17 by ArniePie
What Is The Purpose Of Iata Numbers? posted Sat Jan 1 2005 21:04:59 by DeltaWings
What Is The Measure Of Freighter Efficiency? posted Wed Oct 27 2004 18:05:22 by N6376m
What Is The Power Of VHF Radios On Airliners? posted Sun Oct 10 2004 23:25:31 by KDTWFlyer
What Is The Purpose Of "drooping" Ailerons posted Sun Aug 17 2003 17:56:25 by Olympic A-340
What Is The Edge Of Space (Altitude In Feet) posted Mon Sep 30 2002 19:27:43 by Wardialer
What Is The Purpose Of The Solid Red Window... posted Mon May 16 2011 13:55:20 by timmydasquirrel
What Is The Thickness Of An Asphalt Runway? posted Tue Nov 16 2010 04:20:34 by mehairy7
787: What Is The Benefit Of So Much Wing Flex? posted Tue Dec 22 2009 03:06:46 by Faro
What Is The Cost Of Turbofans? posted Sun Feb 8 2009 08:14:55 by Nitepilot79
What Is The Effect Of Rain On Jet Engines? posted Sun Feb 25 2007 23:03:32 by JAM747
What Is The Purpose Of The Flight Director On AP? posted Sat Nov 19 2005 21:31:03 by Julesmusician

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format