Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Easa & FAA Licence In Mx  
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 18019 times:

Firstly does EASA Recognise the FAA A&P Licence.
Or rather does FAA A&P licence get considered as a ICAO Type II licence.

So How does one convert from an ICAO Type II recognised Licence to an FAA Licence.

regds
MEL


Think of the brighter side!
17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13967 posts, RR: 63
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 18034 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Thread starter):
Firstly does EASA Recognise the FAA A&P Licence.

No, because both licensing systemsare totally different. Same applies the other way around.

I'm not even sure that the FAA A&P licence is recognised as an ICAO Type II licence, since it is not type specific.

Quoting HAWK21M (Thread starter):
So How does one convert from an ICAO Type II recognised Licence to an FAA Licence.

Just do the normal A&P exams, if one has been working on aircraft as long as you do, it should be fairly easy.
AFAIK, the Indian licensing system is related to the old British CAA one (just as the old Irish system was, like my own old licence). When I did the A&P exams, I found them ridiculously easy, just multiple choice tests. The FAA publishes the questions, so with a little bit of learning and some common sense it is easy (I studied for the exams while flying from FRA to DAL). The biggest problem for you will be to get a letter from some US aircraft operator which states that you as a foreigner will be needed to maintain American registered aircraft and that there is no American available. You'll need this letter to be permitted to take the exams. For me, I was working at the German UPS base at the time and UPS is fortunately well known to the FAA, so their letter was not questioned.

Jan


User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3977 posts, RR: 34
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 18020 times:

Yes same here. I got a letter from TWA as I knew their maint manager in Europe, and went to Fort Worth. I arrived on Monday, and had my A and P the following Monday having done no prep at all beforehand. I just learned the answers to the questions. 80pc of them you know anyway, just had to learn some weight and balance and fabric repairs. At the end you have to do a practical test. The examiner looked at my ICAO licence and we had a chat and I worked for half an hour for him and he signed my A and P.
But if you have an ICAO licence, you only need an A and P if you are going to work for an American Company.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 17959 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 1):
AFAIK, the Indian licensing system is related to the old British CAA one (just as the old Irish system was, like my own old licence).

Thats true But with CAR147 & CAR66 to be introduced in 2008 along with the Existing CAR 145,Its going to be very similiar to the same under EASA.

DGCA Issued AME Licences are ICAO type II.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 1):
When I did the A&P exams, I found them ridiculously easy, just multiple choice tests

I found the questions simple too,It was like in AME training college.

I found the EASA system to be more in detail personally.

Talking about Licences......How are the other Regulatory Authorities followed procedures of other countries.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offline737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 785 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 17951 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

MD11egineer: I have read this explanation from you before. I am sick and tired of you degrading my license. You want to compare experience. Just because you are European does not make you a better mechanic......I spent 10 years in the US military as a mechanic, that is what allowed me to obtain a sign off to get my chance to take the test. If you don't have the experience than you have to go to 18 to 24 months of school to obtain the sign off to even take the test. From what I've read you already had the experience, just like me. Get off your" I am better than thou bandwagon". I've read it many many many times. Read, school or experience required to take the test. Same as you. You are right, the test is published, but here it is a license to learn, I don't care what kind of schooling you got, until you actually did the jobs you have no clue. That's why airlines have minimum qualification standards. Where I work it's 3 yrs. heavy jet. You don't just step into the fire. Even at that, you are questioned as to your abilities by your supervisor. You are watched and graded if you are an inexperienced mech. Don't mean to be so abrupt but there is no data to say the US system is dysfunctional. Later and Semper Fi:

737tdi

What I'm saying here, is you already had a license from a participating organization. You already had the experience on heavy aircraft and your airline could document it. It's not even close to that easy for someone just starting. Come on now. If it was that easy I would have just gotten my license in 1978 when I got my pilots license. I wouldn't have to go through anything else. Just take a test then I could work on my own aircraft.

[Edited 2007-12-19 10:20:07]

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13967 posts, RR: 63
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 17946 times:



Quoting 737tdi (Reply 4):
What I'm saying here, is you already had a license from a participating organization. You already had the experience on heavy aircraft and your airline could document it. It's not even close to that easy for someone just starting. Come on now. If it was that easy I would have just gotten my license in 1978 when I got my pilots license. I wouldn't have to go through anything else. Just take a test then I could work on my own aircraft.

Well, I did an apprenticeship (normally 3 1/2 years for somebody direct from secondary school, but in my case reduced to 2 years because I could show previous experience in metal work, so I spent only a few weeks in the basic metal work shop compared to the normal apprentices, who had to do a whole year, and had done maths, physics and chemistry at university level, additionally I was already fluent in English, for this I didn't have to attend vocational school, but I was expected to pass the same exams as anybody else). The qualification exams after the apprenticeship were at approximately the level of the A&P licence, we had to pass 4 multiple choice exams (mathematics/physics, draughtsmanship, aircraft technology and aerodynamics, labour and aviation law), plus four tasks to be carried out at an aircraft (in my case I the aircraft was a 737-200, I had to service a brake accumulator, change a nose wheel, replace an ignitor plug on an engine, change the coalescer sock and change the turbofan valve in the aircon system, while answering questions about the respective systems), Then I had to get two years experience, before I was even admitted to the Irish licence exams, and those were the toughest exams I ever faced, and this includes university.
Then, once you got your basic licence, you've got to do your type rating courses and a level 3 course is harder than one of your FAM courses (I know, because I have done both).
Then you have to show at least 6 months experience on type (or a 2 week OJT under an instructor) to get the type entered into your licence.
Now, once you get hired by an airline, you'll have to pass the airline's quality board, which, with some airlines, is two days of 8 hours each of oral exams about all systems.
Only then I was allowed to certify for my work.
The A&P licence is very much centered on general aviation. I had to learn stuff which I will most likely never use in my professional life, like repairing wooden aircraft, fabric covering or adjusting radial engines.
The knowledge required for the A&P licence is very wide, everything from helicopters, gliders, etc. to heavy jets, but it doesn't go very deep.

One thing I also don't like is the multiple choice system with published questions. First, you have four answers to each question. One is usually totally off, two sound reasonable and one is correct. But this style (unfortunately it got introduced by the EASA as well) leads to people just learning the questions and answers by rote without properly understanding what they are talking about. Also the oral exam was a joke. The examiner asked me ALL questions in her book (I wondered why the exam would not end). Unlike those old style Irish examiners who quizzed me in the Irish exam, she was not allowed to probe and dig, but had to use the prescribed questions.
I never did an EASA exam, instead I did my licence exams under the old pre-EASA Irish system, which was a copy of the British one. The written exams were ALL essay type exams, no multiple choice and the questions were worded in a way (and not published) that you really had to understand what you were writing.

BTW, there are still differences in the interpretation of the EASA rules inbetween the various European aviation authorities. E.g. it used to be quite easy in the Scandinavian countries to get an EASA B1/B2 licence, which is almost impossible in Germany, Ireland and the UK. On the other hand, every B1, who has applied to get his first type entered into his licence has to undergo a one day oral exam by the German LBA. My younger colleagues, who are due for these exams are sh*tscared of it.

Sorry to, but I found the A&P exam easy, and many of my former German (and British) colleagues, who have gotten their A&P licence, thought the same.

Jan


User currently offlineAvioniker From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1109 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 17943 times:

You are all trying to compare apples to oranges.
The FAA A&P is a certificate not a license. It certifies that the individual has met a minimum set of criteria in demonstrating his competence with tools and ability to do the research and understand the training necessary to do a job.
In the US the A&P is a starting point. The mechanic must still get the specific training and have the specific competencies documented in training records before being allowed to work unsupervised on any task.
He or she may be supervised remotely as is frequently the case at outstations with contract maintenance by the operators' maintenance controllers but he or she isn't on their own to wreak havok at will.
The A&P isn't expected to memorize a set of procedures for every task (engine run and taxi being exceptions) but rather is expected to know where to get the most current information for the task at hand and, having that information readily available, follow the steps in the procedure to the letter.
With the myriad advances in technology and modifications to systems coming on an almost daily basis I find the requirement to get current information prior to each job an excellent means to ensure the continued safety of the fleet.
When I interview prospective new-hires I am much less likely to hire the one with the pat memorized answers given the opportunity to hire an individual who will ask if he may look something up before answering.
The A&P is free to learn new skills and move about in the various maintenance areas. The certificate allows that. Not having a type rating frees the individual to grow. Requiring documented training and qualifications is designed to keep the unqualified from doing things beyond their abilities. Unfortunately I see more and more evidence of the US going toward more and more restrictiveness in allowing mechanics growth. I sometimes wonder if it isn't part of the big picture keeping wages low by keeping mechanics limited.
Both systems have the same goals in mind. Safety and airworthiness. The difference is one encourages growth and one encourages pigeon-holeing. It's a free market versus controlled labor mentality difference.

I've worked in Europe and have unending respect for European skills and abilities.
I'm back in the US and prefer the freedom to breathe the air of my choosing.

Enough ranting for one day!

Just one fast aging man's opinion, mind you. . .
 Silly



One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3977 posts, RR: 34
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 17933 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 5):
it used to be quite easy in the Scandinavian countries to get an EASA B1/B2 licence,

I am a Brit working in Sweden. All Swedish engineers with glass cockpit ratings were given B1 and B2 at conversion from ICAO licence.. I only got a B1-1 from the UK, and we worked together.
But the Scandinavian ICAO Engineer licensing system was all encompassing. To get a type rating was a 5 month course with two days of oral exams at the end. You got a B737-200 rating. There was no A or C or X, everyone took all the exams. So I reckon their B1 B2 was justified. (Still pisses me off though)

I also hold an A and P. And although I work for a European airline, I spent 6 years working on TWA B767 and L1011. The yanks were different. If you had a problem, you called MCI and they patched you through to an expert. He told you what to do and you did it under HIS authority. If you wanted to Placard an item, you needed permission.
In the European system, the Maintrol CANNOT give you permission to do anything. They only help you find the correct MM or MEL procedure. Going outside this is a mammoth task not taken lightly.
I felt that the A and P ensured you were a good mechanic, but the airline still expected to control what you did. It was frustrating having to get a Placard control number to MEL a pax oxygen bottle, but that was their system.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13967 posts, RR: 63
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 17929 times:



Quoting Avioniker (Reply 6):
t certifies that the individual has met a minimum set of criteria in demonstrating his competence with tools and ability to do the research and understand the training necessary to do a job.
In the US the A&P is a starting point.

For us, this is what the apprenticeship is for (and no, under the traditional apprenticeship system, you don't just sit in a classroom or work on dead training aircraft, e.g. I did my apprenticeship with LH in SXF and worked for almost the whole time on life aircraft in heavy maintenance, under supervision, of course. After the first basic year (Metalwork 101) the normal apprentices (I had a special status, since I was already an adult at this time and was paying for the apprenticeship) were working 2 weeks and one week in the classroom in vocational school for the theory.
For this is the apprenticeship. You learn how to work with tools and materials, how to use the documentation (AMM, IPC, ...) etc., but passing the apprenticeship doesn't give you any signing privileges.

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 7):
The yanks were different. If you had a problem, you called MCI and they patched you through to an expert. He told you what to do and you did it under HIS authority. If you wanted to Placard an item, you needed permission.
In the European system, the Maintrol CANNOT give you permission to do anything. They only help you find the correct MM or MEL procedure. Going outside this is a mammoth task not taken lightly.

Exactly. This is what I noted when I was working for UPS. You needed a permission from MOC for almost everything.
In Europe, at B1 / B2 level, the airliner expects you to go out to an outstation and to run it on your own. The B1 / B2 is legaly fully responsible for everything he signs off. I don't have to ask anybody if I raise a deferral (HIL item in Europe). Obviously, if I want to snag a more expensive item like an engine, the airline sometimes wants to have a second opinion and I have to justify my diagnosis, but I never had a problem if I had to ground an aircraft.
You are expected to have enough knowledge about the aircraft systems that you can make an educated guess when the pilot tells you the problem and go straight to the relevant AMM or FIM chapter.
I have been sent to recover AOG aircraft in places without maintenance and had to act completely on my own.
Tech services is exactly this, the place to go if you used up all of your own resources and need more information than the AMM, FIM, WDM can give you, but in the end the responsibility rests with you.
I also as a shift leader expect my B1 and B2 engineers to know enough to tackle a problem and at least have a basic idea where to go looking.

Jan


User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 17901 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 8):
You needed a permission from MOC for almost everything.
In Europe, at B1 / B2 level, the airliner expects you to go out to an outstation and to run it on your own. The B1 / B2 is legaly fully responsible for everything he signs off.

Well even though US airlines require you to get approval for MEL relief or direction of what they want done from their Maint Control even in the US the responsibility still rests with the mechanic doing the work. He is the one who will get hung if the job was done incorrectly. But I have to admit the FAA is a joke at best. You do not need an A@P to work on aircraft in the US but you DO need one to sign off the work. As far as having heavy jet requirements to work for major airlines, again this is driven by supply and demand just as it is for pilots. In a soft economy with very few jobs and a lot of mechanics the airlines (atleast the high paying ones) will demand a certain amount of experience but if there is a shortage of mechanics they may want the high time experience but will drop it to get the mechanics they need. Not to say they will cut them loose on an airliner alone but they may hire them. I have always wished the US would go to a type rated system for the MX like the JAA does. Working for an airline with 7 different fleet types and you are required to address any problem on any fleet this can be very tough to keep up with. If we were limited to 2 types MAX I believe this would help the AMT. After all you don't see the FAA allowing that for the pilots do you. They are qualified to fly ONE type you don't see a pilot going from a DC-9 to a DC-10 to an A320 all in the same day but they do it to us.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineA/c train From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 501 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 17897 times:

The licence does not make the engineer, ive sat all 17 exams for the full EASA B1 and im still of the opinion that any whizz kid can pass exams but it takes a little more to be a good, safe and intelligent Aircraft technician. People who talk a good job generally are covering the cracks in their own ability.

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 17870 times:

Folks....The Discussions Above are quite Educational to me personally,as Currently the DGCA System is more similiar to the European one & very soon will be more like EASA system.

Also I heard in the FAA A&P System there is a condition of an Individual A&P holder to perform a particular task under the Supervision of an Experienced AME before the next similiar task can be certified by the Individual.
Is this true.Who keeps the Records of the Jobs done.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13967 posts, RR: 63
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 17850 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 11):
Also I heard in the FAA A&P System there is a condition of an Individual A&P holder to perform a particular task under the Supervision of an Experienced AME before the next similiar task can be certified by the Individual.
Is this true.Who keeps the Records of the Jobs done.

This is true, but the rules say nothing about recordkeeping. I know that the South African CAA issues a log book to the LAME's, where they have to write down every major task and get it certified by their QA. This sounds like a good thing, you basically carry your CV all the time with you and have proof about the tasks you carried out (including tech log page or task card number, so it is traceable). I just joined the ALAE and ordered such a log book through them.

Jan


User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3977 posts, RR: 34
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 17846 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
I know that the South African CAA issues a log book to the LAME's, where they have to write down every major task and get it certified by their QA

The British CAA is the same.
In BA we have to keep a log book and present it to QA every two years to get our authorisations renewed when we go for our continuation training. It may sound easy, but sometimes it takes some explaining to get it through!!


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 17825 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
I just joined the ALAE and ordered such a log book through them.

Whats ALAE.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
but the rules say nothing about recordkeeping

So wheres the Prevention of an Individual doing a job he has no experience on.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineWirelock From Spain, joined Sep 2007, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 17823 times:



Quoting A/c train (Reply 10):
The licence does not make the engineer, ive sat all 17 exams for the full EASA B1 and im still of the opinion that any whizz kid can pass exams but it takes a little more to be a good, safe and intelligent Aircraft technician. People who talk a good job generally are covering the cracks in their own ability.

Post of the day!
Like i said in the contracting thread i feel that airlines in the states use the A+p as an excuse not to pay mechanics proper rates. i absolutley respect A+P's and what they put up with. Having to T/S on many different types during a shift is admirable to say the least. there are not too many people in Europe that have , 1 the approvals or 2 the knowledge to do this!!


User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3977 posts, RR: 34
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 17821 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 14):
Whats ALAE.

The Association of Licenced Aircraft Engineers.
Its a British Invention. Bit like a Trade Union and a Trade association together.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 17817 times:



Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 16):
The Association of Licenced Aircraft Engineers.
Its a British Invention. Bit like a Trade Union and a Trade association together.

Interesting Thanks.So do they do something constructive too.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Easa & FAA Licence In Mx
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
Aviation Management In Mx Links posted Fri Dec 8 2006 15:36:29 by HAWK21M
A.R.M.S Usage In Mx posted Sat Jul 22 2006 11:31:34 by HAWK21M
Mx Personnell - Rise In Carrier posted Wed Aug 1 2007 23:21:13 by HAWK21M
Ground Holds & Place In Takeoff Line posted Tue Jul 24 2007 21:00:41 by Analog
Logging FAA Flight Time In Europe- Questions posted Mon Jun 18 2007 16:01:57 by HighFlyer9790
Resetting Tripped CBs In Flt & Ditching Procedure posted Fri Feb 2 2007 13:07:53 by HAWK21M
A&P Jobs With USAir In PHL posted Tue Nov 14 2006 08:58:20 by MXSUP
Help, FAA Landing F.L. & Real Landing Distance posted Tue Sep 26 2006 04:03:45 by AGANX
Mx Signal In Pic posted Tue Jun 27 2006 19:05:08 by HAWK21M
Mx Training & Bond posted Tue Jan 17 2006 08:27:12 by HAWK21M
Icao & FAA Aviation Videos posted Tue Apr 22 2008 09:35:03 by TowerEye
Aviation Management In Mx Links posted Fri Dec 8 2006 15:36:29 by HAWK21M
A.R.M.S Usage In Mx posted Sat Jul 22 2006 11:31:34 by HAWK21M
A&P In US Trying To Obtain Easa B1 & B2 Rating posted Wed Aug 26 2009 18:09:22 by Xms3200
FAA CPL ME IR To JAA Atpl In London posted Sun Mar 14 2010 16:27:09 by OestbyG
Good A&P School In AZ Or SW US? posted Mon May 18 2009 19:36:34 by FLY2HMO
FAA & International Aviation Agencies posted Mon May 11 2009 23:16:02 by Propilot83
Questions Regarding Check-In & Baggage Handling posted Sat Apr 11 2009 14:03:00 by JA
Pilots & Guns In The Cockpit posted Wed Dec 3 2008 20:42:38 by HighFlyer9790
Icao & FAA Aviation Videos posted Tue Apr 22 2008 09:35:03 by TowerEye
Aviation Management In Mx Links posted Fri Dec 8 2006 15:36:29 by HAWK21M
A.R.M.S Usage In Mx posted Sat Jul 22 2006 11:31:34 by HAWK21M
A&P In US Trying To Obtain Easa B1 & B2 Rating posted Wed Aug 26 2009 18:09:22 by Xms3200
FAA CPL ME IR To JAA Atpl In London posted Sun Mar 14 2010 16:27:09 by OestbyG
Good A&P School In AZ Or SW US? posted Mon May 18 2009 19:36:34 by FLY2HMO
FAA & International Aviation Agencies posted Mon May 11 2009 23:16:02 by Propilot83
Questions Regarding Check-In & Baggage Handling posted Sat Apr 11 2009 14:03:00 by JA
Pilots & Guns In The Cockpit posted Wed Dec 3 2008 20:42:38 by HighFlyer9790

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format