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250k Below 10'000 Can Be Exempt?

Boeingfan4life From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 10 months 21 hours ago) and read 1292 times:

i heard the some really heavy aircraft can be exempt from the 250 knot below 10'000 rule. is this true?

19 replies: All unread, jump to last

Seagull From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 340 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (10 years 10 months 20 hours ago) and read 1199 times:

Look up 14 CFR 91.117(d)

Modesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2549 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (10 years 10 months 18 hours ago) and read 1181 times:

Yes, that's right. Some large aircraft, such as the 747-400, when fully loaded need to exceed 250 knots to complete the flap retraction sequence. I was listening to my scanner at LAX and a Lufthansa 744 bound for Munich request 280 knots to clean-up; the controller approved the request.

XFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3695 posts, RR: 36
Reply 3, posted (10 years 10 months 15 hours ago) and read 1156 times:

Heavy aircraft like the 747 and DC-10 have that minimum clean speed in excess of 250 knots, so they will always request a higher speed than 250 on depature. It is usually approved. They will also request to hold higher than the maximum speed to stay clean if need be.

Chicks dig winglets.

DE727UPS From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 814 posts, RR: 17
Reply 4, posted (10 years 10 months 13 hours ago) and read 1141 times:

Wow...I've never heard that about the 747's. I know around the Houston area, the FAA was running an experiment which allowed high speed descents...above 250K below 10,000MSL. In Europe and Canada, it's common to go fast below 10 but not in the USA. I've NEVER heard a controller ask for a speed in excess of 250K below 10...even when they probably could have used it....

XFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3695 posts, RR: 36
Reply 5, posted (10 years 10 months 11 hours ago) and read 1114 times:

I know in Northwest the heavy pilots are always told to request clean up speed as quickly as possible... clean speed for a 580,000 pound DC-10-30 is around 270 knots depending on temp and stuff, and they will always request for higher than 250 below 10k... it is usually approved from what i hear.

Chicks dig winglets.

Seagull From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 340 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (10 years 10 months 9 hours ago) and read 1104 times:

At max weight we climb at 289kts in the MD-11. There is no requirement to "request" the higher speed unless there has been a specific restriction issued in addition to the standard 250 one listed in 91.117. Some pilots will notify ATC that they will be climbing at a higher speed as a courtesy call. Similarly, I'll often times notify ATC that my minimum speed on final will be higher than what they're used to (with no unusual winds, we can commonly see 167kts at max weight, with more wind additives it can be far more).

Timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6231 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (10 years 10 months 6 hours ago) and read 1098 times:

Lemme get this straight. When the heavies request 280 knots or whatever to clean up, and ATC okays it, they can immediately accelerate to 280, even though below 10000 ft? Or is ATC just waiving the standard "do not exceed 250 kt until further advised" part of the pre-departure clearance, which presumably refers to their speed above 10000 ft?

Looking at Seagull's regulation, section 91.117 of

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfrhtml_00/Title_14/14cfr91_00.html

it says 250+ below 10000 can only be authorized by the "Administrator"; so is his authority delegated to ATC?

Aaron atp From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 533 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (10 years 10 months 4 hours ago) and read 1083 times:

§ 91.117
(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

aaron

Jetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 10 months 3 hours ago) and read 1075 times:

ATC at HOU has asked us on several occasions for 300 KIAS on initial climbout - this in a corporate jet. It's just not for the "heavies". Additionally, it is not unheard of for air ambulance flights to keep the airspeed at the barberpole on descents into terminal areas.

Ziggy From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 178 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 years 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 1065 times:

would just like to interject that military A/C also have exceptions too. I.E. F-16 that aren't built to fly that slow.

Seagull From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 340 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (10 years 10 months 1 hour ago) and read 1062 times:

Timz-

No request is required. If my weight nets a required clean min speed above 250kts below 10,000' I can accelerate to that speed, period. There is no requirement that you fly with flaps/slats out so you can stay below 250 or 200kts below the lateral limits of Class B, etc.

Timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6231 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (10 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1032 times:

So when the pilots do request permission for 280-or-whatever knots they're just being courteous? If ATC refuses permission they can do 280 anyway? Does that likewise apply to the predeparture-clearance 250-knot restriction?

XFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3695 posts, RR: 36
Reply 13, posted (10 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1022 times:

Hmm..thanks for that clarification Seagull. What about on holding? Do you let them know that youll be holding above 200/230/260 knots (depending on altitude)?

Chicks dig winglets.

Seagull From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 340 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (10 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1021 times:

If there is an ATC requirement that they state, like 250kts, then we need to tell them that is unacceptable when they issue that clearance and they have to vector us or whatever else to make it work. No different than requiring a different runway due to weight than what they'd prefer.

As to holding, that's a different situation for two reason:

1. You can request a higher speed and ATC will approve that based on known traffic, however

2. If you request a higher speed and get the clearance for that higher speed that does NOT guarantee you terrain separation, so the pilot does need to consider terrain in making the request. There are times that we just need to put out the flaps/slats to make it work.

Jetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 979 times:

Just for grins I contacted a good friend of mine who is an FAA inspector. I asked him the following quesion: "On departure is it necessary to maintain a configuration (slats and Kruger flaps deployed) that will allow the aircraft to comply with the 200 KIAS speed limit when operating beneath the lateral limits of Class B airspace or is it acceptable to fly the aircraft in the "clean" configuration even though the minimum safe airspeed in the clean configuration is above the 200 KIAS limit?"

He sent me the following reply:

"...The FAR's do not prohibit that operation. Now that I have said that let me explain the finer points about working with ATC and the FAA.

1. If you are at a low altitude and exceed 200 or 250 there is a record made by ATC and ATC may question you. However your flight in question will end up as an
investigation at the FSDO. When you are contacted regarding the "possible fracture" of 91.117 and you tell them what you told me it will probably be closed with no action.

2. You have 2 choices (1) configure the airplane to maintain the speed limits or (2) fly clean at the higher speed.

3. If you maintain speed limits and configure the airplane to do so, no problem end of subject.

4. If you clean the airplane up and accelerate to the speed required be absolutely positive you tell ATC on each frequency you operate on the reasons for exceeding the speed limits while in the airspace discussed in 91.117. Remember ATC spaces aircraft distances based on speed. This should preclude a
FSDO investigation.

If you read 91.117(d) it does not specify the aircraft configuration. All it says is "...any particular operation..."

The decision is yours. Hope this helps."

I guess the real answer is just how badly do you want to have to deal "up close and personal" with the FAA?

Seagull From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 340 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 972 times:

Having flown heavy widebodies for many, many years, I can tell you that despite what your FAA friend says, that is not what happens. If ATC is concerned they say something and then we tell them that we require the higher airspeed for operational reasons. I have never heard of it being questioned or anyone having to answer from FAA. Ever.

Jetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 971 times:

Seagull...
I kinda figured that was the case. I think that they (ATC) probably expect it from you guys, however for us corporate types this is something relatively new. For most of the "corporate size" aircraft in the fleet this isn't even a consideration, however our new Gulfstream 200 (IAI Galaxy) has a minimum "clean wing" speed of up to 220 KIAS depending, of course, upon weight. It's good to know that the 200 kt max speed can be exceeded and I've decided that I won't make an issue of it unless ATC asks. Thanks for your comments

A380-700R From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 17 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 948 times:

Hmmm, Boeingfan4life,

Please don’t misunderstand me, I don’t want to suspect you unjustified and please accept my apologies in advance if I’m wrong … but … is it possible that you are rating your own topics with 5 stars to attract more attention?

I mean it is surprising that all your topics are rated with 5 stars (after my test-rating there are now 4 in some cases) even if they consist just of one simple and special question and even if only one or two people replied to it. As far as I know this would not break any rules but I don’t think that this is the purpose of the rating-system.

Again, please forgive me my strange suspicions, it was just my impression and of course might be a complete misunderstanding.

Greetings Innocent

Boeingfan4life From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 934 times:

Ha, ha, ha!!! No, I don't take offense to it. Although, most, if not all of my posts have either three or four stars. Check them if you want.

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