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Three Attempted Takeoffs?  
User currently offlineFaro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1534 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2403 times:

Came across this passage in another thread:

"29 August 1998; Cubana Tupolev 154M; Quito, Equador: After two other attempted takeoffs, the aircraft crashed during its third takeoff attempt for a flight to Guayaquil. The aircraft came down in a neighborhood near the airport. All 14 crew members and 57 of the 76 passengers were killed. Ten persons on the ground were also killed."

I can understand attempted landings that result in go-arouunds; what on earth is an attempted takeoff? You either takeoff or you abort and head back to the stand; I don't understand.

Faro


The chalice not my son
10 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2401 times:



Quoting Faro (Thread starter):
what on earth is an attempted takeoff? You either takeoff or you abort and head back to the stand; I don't understand.

Don't get too excited about wording from a press release. OK, he tried twice to T/O but rejected both times.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2369 times:

was each rejection followed by Mx action.what was the reason for the Earlier Two Rejects.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineBHMBAGLOCK From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2089 times:



Quoting Faro (Thread starter):
"29 August 1998; Cubana Tupolev 154M; Quito, Equador

When I saw the thread title, I was pretty sure this would be the crash involved.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 2):
was each rejection followed by Mx action.what was the reason for the Earlier Two Rejects.

A friend of mine in Quito who is very well connected and also qualified to have an opinion(comm. pilot, ex-USAF KC-135 navigator) told me that the problem was that the pilot did not have any flaps out. Absolutely shocking, but would certainly explain it and I have no reason to doubt him. Cubana is not a model of safety or good practices in any way.



Where are all of my respected members going?
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2020 times:



Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 3):
the problem was that the pilot did not have any flaps out

Was this on all three attempts.
Wasn't there Mx Action performed.
and what about Warnings.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineBHMBAGLOCK From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1954 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 4):
Was this on all three attempts.

As I understand it, yes. Although, thinking a little more about this, it may not have been zero flaps but instead an improper flap setting for the altitude at Quito.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 4):
Wasn't there Mx Action performed.

I was told, no.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 4):
and what about Warnings.

Don't know, but I believe this a/c normally carries a flight crew of 4 indicating little to no automation to me.



Where are all of my respected members going?
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1872 times:



Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 5):
Don't know, but I believe this a/c normally carries a flight crew of 4 indicating little to no automation to me.

I meant the T/O Warning.....Flaps not in T/O Range.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineOV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 909 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1828 times:



Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 3):
A friend of mine in Quito who is very well connected and also qualified to have an opinion(comm. pilot, ex-USAF KC-135 navigator) told me that the problem was that the pilot did not have any flaps out. Absolutely shocking, but would certainly explain it and I have no reason to doubt him. Cubana is not a model of safety or good practices in any way.



Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 5):
Don't know, but I believe this a/c normally carries a flight crew of 4 indicating little to no automation to me.

Advancing throttles to takeoff power with flaps set to 0 degrees (or any other necessary parameter not met) will trigger a loud alarm in the Tu-154 cockpit. Continuing takeoff with the alarm sounding is of course strictly forbidden.

Quito is quite high and hot, which is a somewhat uncomfortable situation for the Soloviev engines. According to a short accident description in Dmitriy Komissarov's book about the Tu-154, the accident aircraft had troubles starting the engines in the first place due to the rarified air at that altitude.


User currently offlineFaro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1534 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1738 times:



Quoting OV735 (Reply 7):
Quito is quite high and hot, which is a somewhat uncomfortable situation for the Soloviev engines. According to a short accident description in Dmitriy Komissarov's book about the Tu-154, the accident aircraft had troubles starting the engines in the first place due to the rarified air at that altitude.

So I presume they had multiple engine start attempts, the last of which succeeded. They then took off, or attempted to take off. In that case it was not really a matter of mutliple attempted takeoffs but rather multiple attempted engine starts.

Faro



The chalice not my son
User currently offline9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 708 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1627 times:
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Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 6):
I meant the T/O Warning.....Flaps not in T/O Range.

Might have been in t/o range at sea-level...does the automated warning adjust with altitude?



Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1573 times:



Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 9):
Might have been in t/o range at sea-level...does the automated warning adjust with altitude

No
But the conditions normally are:-
1.Parking Brake set.
2.Thrust levers Advanced.
3.Flaps not in T/O Range.
4.Stablizer not in Green Band.
5.Speed brakes not in down detent.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
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