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Security For Airline Staff.  
User currently offlineAvt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2132 posts, RR: 5
Posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3060 times:

Here's the thing; I work for an airline. I have a biometric based security clearance that took months to receive, going through various federal government agencies to ensure that I'm not a security risk. I can bypass security, walk to the gate, board the plane with assorted tools, take the cockpit apart to fix something, fiddle with the engines, all the usual maintenance stuff, without any hassle. Indeed I am supposed to bypass the regular security checkpoint, using the biometric scanner instead. But if I'm going to actually fly on the aircraft, all of a sudden I'm a security risk! It brings to mind something a pilot once said, "you either trust us or you don't". He was referring to some rule regarding how much liquid a flight crew member could carry on board when they are on duty, versus deadheading. The amount apparently is different!
The same principle applies to myself and other maintenance staff- you trust us not to sabotage the aircraft or plant bombs at work, but when we come to fly, you want to have a close look at my shoes.
This train of thought came from the NonAv forum thread on FBI biometric databases. Someone said they'd be all for it if it meant less hassle at security.
So my question would be, is it realistic to consider allowing security clearance holders to by pass security on their way to board a flight?

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31573 posts, RR: 57
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3049 times:



Quoting Avt007 (Thread starter):
So my question would be, is it realistic to consider allowing security clearance holders to by pass security on their way to board a flight?

The question is can you trust everyone not to get influenced.........If you are the only one travelling its ok,but if theres more than one person travelling then Everyone needs to be security checked.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineTbanger From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 266 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3035 times:

This topic is exactly like the argument for dangerous goods. Whilst the goods are essential for the safe operation of an aircraft, (fire extinguishers, batteries, oxygen bottles, fire squibs, seperation bolts,life jackets, dry ice etc.....) they are not deemed to be dangerous. As soon as they become 'cargo' they all of a sudden become dangerous goods.

Like too are the ground crew of an aircraft. You can bypass security (or be screened when you walk in the gate) go and get your tool box from the hangar and go about your business with no problems. As soon as you become a passenger you are suddenly dangerous goods and need to be consigned......or in this case screened.


User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6199 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3018 times:

It does seem rather pointless for an employee who can bypass security to go to work suddenly has to be screened as a pax. What that means is that if you're catching a ride somewhere after work and you're already in the sterile area, you have the exit the sterile area and then go back through to be screened. Besides, how is anyone going to know whether or not said employee followed the rules? Other than the threat of being fired for getting caught, the only thing making sure the employees are getting screened is the employee's integrity. TRUST--the foundation for good security  Yeah sure


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineAvioniker From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1109 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2971 times:

See if you can reconcile this. . .
I took a plane from the hangar to the gate at MCI a couple of years ago. The purpose was for me to give a taxi check sign-off to a mechanic.
I was riding the jump seat to STL on the same plane so it made sense for me to do the check thus saving someone else having to find a ride back to the hangar. Here's where it gets strange as only the TSA can make it strange;
I made the mistake of leaving the plane to use the rest room. When I went back to reboard, jump seat card in hand, the TSA gate people, all of whom knew me and saw me park the plane at the gate, chose me as one of their "random" pat-down search victims.
If anyone has any kind of sane, logical, or acceptable explanation for that one, I definitely want to hear it.

I know they have a job to do but, really. . .

 Silly



One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3139 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2958 times:

I still fail to see why I can't carry a leatherman to tighten up a loose screw, or a pair of nail clippers to keep myself properly groomed but I have a crash axe on the back of my seat.

From what I understand TSA wasn't letting some pilots carry their flashlights through security right after 9/11. We had a number of flights cancelled because leaving the flashlight meant that they were in violation of our Ops Spec and therefore not legal to fly.



DMI
User currently offlineAvt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2132 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2956 times:

At the airport there is a security checkpoint for groundstaff to access the ramp. It consists of a guard, and an eyescanner.
Now this is second hand info , I did not witness it myself, but I have been told that some people were told they couldn't go through with a Leatherman type knife on their belt. Huh? What sense does that make? They aren't boarding aircraft, they're going airside to do their job, which they have been cleared for. I have no problem with security, but the pointless little problems are annoying. I have talked with different Transport Canada inspectors, who tell me they've had lots of security hassles with guards saying they can't be airside, when in fact they have the highest clearance of all when it comes to Canadian airports. And then there's the empire building going on everywhere, with each airport wanting to set their own security rules, it's silly.
And the business of liquids for flight crew, my God. "you can have a litre if you're on duty, but half a litre if you're deadheading". What kind of sense does that make?

[Edited 2007-12-29 18:01:57]

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31573 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2918 times:



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 5):
From what I understand TSA wasn't letting some pilots carry their flashlights through security right after 9/11.

Thats strange.When was the ruling reversed.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineAvt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2132 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2902 times:

At an American airport, I checked in for a flight back home, with two other co-workers. The checkin staff knew we were cons, saw our ID, etc. Yet they wrote "SS" on our boarding passes, and we had to go through secondary screening, although we were airline staff travelling on our own airline, heading out of the USA. Seemed a little funny to me, but I had a nice chat with the lady who emptied my baggage and ran explosives residue checks on every thing I had with me. It was the most thorough inspection I ever had, outside of my doctors office!

User currently offlineAvt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2132 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2899 times:

Here's another anomaly that just came to mind. There is an aircraft bridge at a terminal that uses one door from the terminal to serve two gates. So as you go down the bridge it splits in a "Y", off to the two aircraft. At each end is a door to the ramp, as well as the aircraft entrance. The ramp door on one bridge has a code lock that prevents access to the ramp, while the other bridge has a code lock to stop you getting OFF the ramp! Not only is it very inconsistent and senseless, but you can get on and off the ramp without ever needing the code, provided you used the doors in the right order. I never did figure that one out....  Wink

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2885 times:



Quoting Avt007 (Thread starter):
So my question would be, is it realistic to consider allowing security clearance holders to by pass security on their way to board a flight?

In my opinion (and I may be wrong) if you want to make airports truly secure then there should be security for everyone. Preferably two checkpoints manned by completely unrelated agencies.

I know this may be controversial, and that some people are indeed "trusted". However good security is based on the fact that no one is trusted. Just because he looks like the pilot you know doesn't mean you shouldn't search him.

Having said that, I think staff should have their own checkpoints. It's just more practical that way.

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 5):
I still fail to see why I can't carry a leatherman to tighten up a loose screw, or a pair of nail clippers to keep myself properly groomed but I have a crash axe on the back of my seat.

"Don't question the logic of videogames."  Wink (You'll show your age if you know where that comes from).

Quoting Avt007 (Reply 6):
I have no problem with security, but the pointless little problems are annoying.

That's because they were created by people who don't actually work with security. It's easy to say "weapons should not be allowed" as long as you can leave the actual practicalities to people below your pay grade. Bastards...



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineAvt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2132 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2825 times:



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 10):
"Don't question the logic of videogames."

Tron?


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31573 posts, RR: 57
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2808 times:



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 9):
I never did figure that one out

This is Amazing.Is it still continuing.  Smile
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2780 times:



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 11):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 10):
"Don't question the logic of videogames."

Tron?

Nice try. "The Lost Vikings". One of the characters answers that after another asks why the big end boss, who is supposed to be so evil, leaves all these powerups lying around for them in his fortress.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineAvt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2132 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2772 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 12):
Is it still continuing.

After many years of frustration, I did manage to figure out the correct doors to use in the correct order. I then wrote it down, so I don't get confused.  ashamed 

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 13):
"The Lost Vikings".

Sorry, never heard of it.
 confused 


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31573 posts, RR: 57
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2755 times:



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 14):
After many years of frustration, I did manage to figure out the correct doors to use in the correct order. I then wrote it down, so I don't get confused

So the Door concept still exists. Smile
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2735 times:



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 14):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 13):
"The Lost Vikings".

Sorry, never heard of it.
confused

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lost_Vikings_II. It was developed by Blizzard, which is nowadays very famous for Starcraft, Warcraft, World of Warcraft... The three characters in The Lost Vikings even make a cameo appearance in the World of Warcraft instance "Uldaman".

A great game for its time.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineReidYYZ From Kyrgyzstan, joined Sep 2005, 536 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2653 times:

When on duty, to have tooling that some overzealous security screener may deem as potential weaponry is a necessity. However now jumping on the same aircraft as a passenger, well, you should by all rights be screened. Why, it isn't you that is a threat, it is your tool that could be used as a weapon to another very determined individual with some not-so-nice intentions. When I travel for work related reasons I stow my screwdrivers, minimag and leatherman in my toolbox, riding in the cargo. If I need them, I can access them at the destination station. The last time I carried a screwdriver on board when riding as a flight mechanic was pre-9/11. For various reasons all or most passengers, as well as the crew, knew I was on board. T They had me fixing stuck recline buttons, headset plug jammed with something broken in it, jammed catering containers in the galley etc... I vowed to myself to never be fixing shit in the cabin in flight ever again. I felt as if i was more entertaining to the pax than the IFE system (Read: 100 pair of eyes watching my every goddamn move.) . Unless it is an airworthiness item, and it never is, "I'll look at it on the ground."

On the other hand, another story. Flts departing YYZ to U.S. now have a re-screener at the entrance door to the a/c with a hand held detector. Random pax screening and occasional airport worker screening as well (last minute grooming issue or catering issue requiring a groomer/cataring staff to enter the a/c after the crew boards). Well there I am bringing the log book up. I was chosen at random, and the guy wanded me. I unloaded: a pocket full of screws from a panel I opened earlier in the shift, multi-tip, slotted and a 3" mini slotted screwdriver, my leathman, 3D cell maglight, 6" steel ruler and a can opener.He wanded myself, said okay, and i picked up all my weapons of minimal destruction. I then went on board exactly as I was when i walked up to the door. To me, THAT was retarded. That was some years ago, hasn't happened since but still trying to figure it out.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2638 times:



Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 17):
The last time I carried a screwdriver on board when riding as a flight mechanic was pre-9/11. For various reasons all or most passengers, as well as the crew, knew I was on board. T They had me fixing stuck recline buttons, headset plug jammed with something broken in it, jammed catering containers in the galley etc... I vowed to myself to never be fixing shit in the cabin in flight ever again. I felt as if i was more entertaining to the pax than the IFE system (Read: 100 pair of eyes watching my every goddamn move.) . Unless it is an airworthiness item, and it never is, "I'll look at it on the ground."

 rotfl  I often avoid telling people I am a computer whiz, especially when I see a person perform truly cringe inducing feats on their laptops.

Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 17):
To me, THAT was retarded. That was some years ago, hasn't happened since but still trying to figure it out.

Why are you trying to figure it out. You just wrote your own answer.  Wink



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineKBFIspotter From United States of America, joined May 2005, 729 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2623 times:

I have been sent out of town on rescue missions in the past with as little as ten minutes warning. That is barely enough time to get my tools in order, get any parts I might need from stores, call the fiancee to tell her I will not be home that night, and get to the plane. There is never time to go go back to the front of the terminal and wait in line to be cleared by TSA. I just run to the plane, hand my gear to the rampers so they can place it onboard, run upstairs, grab my boarding pass, and then run back down the stairs to the plane. half the time I am sweating up a storm after rushing to make the flight, and sit in my seat next to a pax (there is always one on every flight) who is amazed that I am brave enough to fly on the planes I work on...

So, the way I see it, and from what I have read on official TSA and FAA releases, if I am traveling on official company business, I do not have to go through security. If I am traveling for pleasure or personal reasons, then yes, I do go through security.

Kris



Proud to be an A&P!!!
User currently onlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13795 posts, RR: 63
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2609 times:

I had an experience a few days ago. Together with a colleague annd a flight crew (two pilots, 4 hosties) I was sent to recover an AOG aircraft at a remote outstation to ferry it back to STN. Well, we fixed the plane and got it over to STN. I wisely left all my sharp tools in my toolbox to go as cargo back to my own homebase. We arrived in STN early in the morning, went to a hotel to get some sleep, with the intention to catch the noontime flight back home (same airline). I checked in my overnight bag and just took my flight case, with which I never had a problem before. Same,, the hosties carried their little roller cases with their duty stuff (they were also wearing uniform, while I was in civvies, not wanting to wear greasy overalls all day), though wearing my airside badge (for my homebase).
Now this STN security bloke rulled that my flight case (which contained electronic gear I was reluctant to check in) was too heavy for cabin luggage (it was 3 kgs over the 10 kg limit, they have scales at the security checkpoint). Same happened to one of the hosties. We both were ordered to check our stuff in, only problem was that the check-in counter was already closed.
So we missed our flight and had to wait three hours for the next one.
Also, I privately remarked to the hostie that the STN security guys were a bunch of w@nkers.
One of them must have overheard it, because shortly afterwards I was approached by a manager, who told me that criticism of STN security personnel and procedures was not allowed and that they had a zero tolerance policy there. I had to apologise to this manager or get arrested.

I have heard lots of horror stories about British security, apparently they have a lot of insecure loosers working there, who like to humiliate especially flight crew.

Jan


User currently offlineAvt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2132 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2576 times:

Pre 911, on AOG trips, I always rode jumpseat, with a razor knife and a screwdriver. Imagine trying that today.......

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31573 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2576 times:



Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 19):
So, the way I see it, and from what I have read on official TSA and FAA releases, if I am traveling on official company business, I do not have to go through security. If I am traveling for pleasure or personal reasons, then yes, I do go through security.

Are you referring to Freighter ops or Commercial Aircraft ops.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineKBFIspotter From United States of America, joined May 2005, 729 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2576 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 22):
Are you referring to Freighter ops or Commercial Aircraft ops.

This is airline ops...


Kris



Proud to be an A&P!!!
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2560 times:



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 5):
From what I understand TSA wasn't letting some pilots carry their flashlights through security right after 9/11.

I had that experience myself. When the screener tried to take my flashlight, I asked for a supervisor and requested that they show me, in an official manual or bulletin, where it was stated that I could not have one. After about 10 minutes of mumbling and tailchasing, I was told to go ahead, but to leave my flashlight at home next time, because he thought it
could be used as a weapon. I asked if he was worried I would bludgeon myself into unconsciousness.

If, despite the background check, airline employees are not to be trusted when going though security (for crew, even if you are operating), then why are screeners (who also have a background check) to be trusted? Who screens the screeners?



Proud OOTSK member
25 Starlionblue : I'm going to nitpick here and say that both freighter and passenger can be commercial, and that they are both airline ops.
26 Starlionblue : Very good point. This is why I always argue for two independent checkpoints manned by different agencies.
27 HAWK21M : Thats true,so lets state Freighter Airline or Pax airline. regds MEL
28 KBFIspotter : I was taking about passenger carriers... I work for a regional as an A&P... Kris
29 ReidYYZ : For the cost of looking mildly ignorant, I'd like to ask: at a major int'l airport, for cargo ops at the freight terminal does the DHL, FEDEX and UPS
30 HAWK21M : So many differences worldwide. Out here If you are part of crew,no boarding pass just a GD. regds MEL
31 Buzz : Hi Avt007, Buzz here. Yes, I used to carry a Leatherman and a Mini-Mag everywhere I go. Now when I airliner-fly somewhere I go pretty much naked... we
32 Post contains images Avt007 : Where I am, there is no security other than for pax. Once you have access to the hangar, that's it. Buzz, I hear ya! I feel kind of "naked" as well.
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