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EWR-HKG Flight Path Question  
User currently offlineNbseer From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 49 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9701 times:

Tracking CO 99 EWR-HKG yesterday (Wednesday). Thought it strange that, instead of taking the most-direct "great circle route' northwest over Hudson Bay, this flight tracked several hundred miles to the northeast, over Boston, Maine, Gaspe Peninsula and Newfoundland.

I assume it eventually took a hard left turn to a more northwesterly route. But unless upper-level winds were more favorable so far east of the optimum track, seems this less-than-direct flight path would be wasting a lot of fuel.

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9666 times:



Quoting Nbseer (Thread starter):
But unless upper-level winds were more favorable so far east of the optimum track, seems this less-than-direct flight path would be wasting a lot of fuel.

Bingo, I'd bet on the winds being more favorable.

There could also have been other issues that only a CO employee can search out and provide answers to.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineStar_world From Ireland, joined Jun 2001, 1234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9570 times:

I took this flight about a month ago and it followed a similar track, before heading on a more northerly track just west of Greenland. It then continued north until just a few hundred miles away from the North Pole.

On the first few hours there was a tailwind of 100+ mph which would explain why this track was taken.


User currently offlineADXMatt From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 951 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9475 times:

It's all based on the winds.....

Today it is going more direct over Montreal up to the north pole track ABERI.


User currently offlineSunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4980 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9189 times:



Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 3):
It's all based on the winds.....

Also, the city pair must be close to 180 degrees of longitude apart otherwise the winds can not make up too much of a differential.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8894 times:

Anyone have a mapped-out graphic of this flight's typical path? Would sincerely appreciate such.

User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10007 posts, RR: 26
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8833 times:
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Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 5):
Anyone have a mapped-out graphic of this flight's typical path? Would sincerely appreciate such.

If you go to www.flightaware.com in about 13 hours, and type in CO 99, you should see the complete flight path. Do that over a few days and I'm sure you'd get a decent idea.

Although, it does say that some portion of the flight path is outside of Flight Aware's service area....Not sure what that means.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17038 posts, RR: 66
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8817 times:

When we flew JFK-HKG it was almost straight north, passing close to the pole, then almost straight south again. Pretty pure great circle. If you think about it even going over Newfoundland isn't a huge diversion from the straight line.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 5):
Anyone have a mapped-out graphic of this flight's typical path? Would sincerely appreciate such.

Well, here's the great circle anyway:

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=e...LOR=navy&MAP-STYLE=&MAP-CENTER=EWR



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9097 posts, RR: 75
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8782 times:

These are the 4 polar routes I plotted in Great Circle Mapper, Polar 3 is closest to the great circle track, but we often use 1 & 2 (the lower ones) when the polar jetstream and over Russia make it worthwhile.



I made a little description of the routes in US Airways To Get A340s For New China Routes! (by EI321 Jan 2 2008 in Civil Aviation)



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offline3201 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8761 times:



Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 4):
Also, the city pair must be close to 180 degrees of longitude apart otherwise the winds can not make up too much of a differential.

Huh? What do you mean by that?


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8743 times:



Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 6):
you should see the complete flight path.

I knew about the site... but how do you view the sections of the flight path that are beyond N.America??


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17038 posts, RR: 66
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 8740 times:



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 10):

I knew about the site... but how do you view the sections of the flight path that are beyond N.America??

Hello Concordeboy. Long time no hear.

You can select various map projections through a drop down menu.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 8732 times:



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
You can select various map projections through a drop down menu.

where at? I don't see any such menu on the screen


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17038 posts, RR: 66
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8701 times:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 12):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
You can select various map projections through a drop down menu.

where at? I don't see any such menu on the screen

To the right of the "Ranges" box is a drop down menu called "Map Style".

[Edited 2008-01-05 04:14:55]


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineCorey07850 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2527 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8677 times:



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 12):

where at? I don't see any such menu on the screen

He thinks you are talking about the great circle website, not flightaware. You cannot see the complete track in flightaware


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17038 posts, RR: 66
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8666 times:



Quoting Corey07850 (Reply 14):
Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 12):

where at? I don't see any such menu on the screen

He thinks you are talking about the great circle website, not flightaware. You cannot see the complete track in flightaware

I did think that. Ah well...



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineAlexEU From Serbia, joined Oct 2007, 1817 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8656 times:

What are the procedures if all engines fail over Arctic (close to N. Pole)?

Is there any map for Europe-North America flight paths?

Cheers


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8638 times:



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 16):
What are the procedures if all engines fail over Arctic (close to N. Pole)?

...tuck your head between your legs and kiss your candy ass goodbye.


User currently offline3201 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8631 times:



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 16):
What are the procedures if all engines fail over Arctic (close to N. Pole)?

Glide towards alternate. If you don't make it, land the aircraft as best you can wherever you can. Use survival equipment -- and anything you can scavange from the aircraft, galleys, fuel tanks, etc. -- to keep people alive. Wait to be rescued.

Not really any different than any other situation where you're stuck in the middle of nowhere.


User currently offlineAlexEU From Serbia, joined Oct 2007, 1817 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8619 times:

I can't belive, because there are hundreds of flights beatween Europe and N. America flying over Arctic.

User currently offline3201 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8614 times:



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 19):
I can't belive, because there are hundreds of flights beatween Europe and N. America flying over Arctic.

But generally "all engines fail" doesn't happen.  Smile


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17038 posts, RR: 66
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8599 times:



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 16):
What are the procedures if all engines fail over Arctic (close to N. Pole)?



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 19):
I can't belive, because there are hundreds of flights beatween Europe and N. America flying over Arctic.

Believe what? That there is little chance of survival if the plane doesn't make it down reasonably intact?


When was the last time you heard of all engines failing? It's extremely rare. We have the Gimli Glider and Air Transat. That's about it in modern times for widebodies. BA volcano thing restarted engines so it doesn't count.

It's just a risk we take. And it's infinitesimally small.


Most of the 1000+ flights between N.America and Europe every day don't go further north than southern Greenland. Still cold and desolate enough of course.  Wink



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21620 posts, RR: 55
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 8576 times:



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 21):
When was the last time you heard of all engines failing? It's extremely rare. We have the Gimli Glider and Air Transat.

And neither of those were technically engine failures - there was nothing wrong with the engines.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17038 posts, RR: 66
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8532 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 22):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 21):
When was the last time you heard of all engines failing? It's extremely rare. We have the Gimli Glider and Air Transat.

And neither of those were technically engine failures - there was nothing wrong with the engines.

Very true. The end result is the same of course. Big grin



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineAlexEU From Serbia, joined Oct 2007, 1817 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8505 times:

What was the last time that transatlantic flight had single engine failure? It's no big deal, but they still have to make an emergency landing.

25 Starlionblue : Only if it's a twin. If it's a triplet or quad it's not an emergency landing.
26 Post contains links SunriseValley : I didn' t put that very well. Sorry! The point I am trying to make is where you have city pairs such as EWR/JFK- HKG that are very close to 180 degre
27 3201 : I guess what bothers me is the implication that on other citypairs the wind-optimal routes are close to great circle. Obviously the longer the distan
28 SunriseValley : So true ! So far as I can tell the further west the crossing of the U.S.- Canada border, the further north the flight goes. No doubt the winds on the
29 3201 : Altitudes should be optimized as well. From what I've seen on FlightAware, VS tends to be off the consensus from everyone else, probably because they
30 Starlionblue : Isn't that just a geographical thing? I mean the further west the destination or origin in the US, the further north the flight should go to follow t
31 3201 : The routes do vary from day to day -- not only based on the detailed location of the jet, but also the strength.
32 Zeke : I have often done the trip "eastbound" in both directions. Lower latitudes from Asia to the US to take advantage of the strong jetstreams east of Jap
33 AlexEU : What are diverting airports for those flights? I can think of Kangerlussuaq only for flights overflying Arctic. I can't think of any diverting airpor
34 Post contains images Zeke : KEF, YEG, YOD, YUL, YWG, YVR, YYZ, YYR, KUO, BOO, FAI, ANC, ICN, YKS, KHV, PKC, BTK, IKT, MMK, KJA, OVB, SVO, PEK, ULN, PVG, HRB, SFJ, THU, YFB, YYQ,
35 Starlionblue : Bear in mind that diverting airports don't have to be dotted around quite everywhere. The requirement for ETOPS is to be able to reach on in 120 minu
36 OldAeroGuy : Don't forget LYR.
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