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Cleared To Land  
User currently offlineNathanR From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 22 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4800 times:

When the tower clears the aircraft to land, what sort of requirements need to met first? Do airplanes that just took off from that runway have to be a certain distance away before approaching airplanes can be cleared? And, one other question...When is the latest an airplane can be cleared for landing? (about how many miles?)

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineXXXX10 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 777 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4791 times:

I have seen a/c at LGW aircraft given clearance to land as soon as the previous (departing) a/c has left the runway.

There would be usually around three miles between them - approaching a/c is one mile east of the threshold and departing a/c is at the western end.


User currently offlineFlipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1561 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4784 times:
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When I fly (just training) I often get cleared to land before another plane is off the runway, there is a special term they use for it but i cant remember, I just have to make sure that its safe for me to do it and if the other aircraft is clear then I can land.

Fred


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4763 times:

It has little to do with the clear condition of the runway. ATC is just saying your next to land on your given runway. I've seen other planes still on the runway when a clear to land was given. I've seen still miles out when given clear to land.


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineP3Orion From United States of America, joined May 2006, 544 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4764 times:



Quoting NathanR (Thread starter):
When the tower clears the aircraft to land, what sort of requirements need to met first?

Essentially, it depends if the aircraft has traffic to follow and if we are talking about an IFR environment like ORD, ATL or LGA or a VFR environment such as TTD, ASH or VRB. At an airport like ORD, when the a/c checks in on final (usually at the marker) the tower will issue traffic and then the clearance: "United fifteen ninety seven, O'Hare Tower, traffic is a heavy triple seven over the approach lights, caution wake turbulence, wind two six zero at one two, runway two seven left, cleared to land." At an airport were the majority of traffic is VFR, such as Nashua, NH (ASH), the Local Controller (who the pilots call "Tower") will create his/her own sequence and before issuing a clearance to land, traffic to follow must be in sight. For example: "Mooney three delta whiskey, number three following a Navajo on a four mile final. Report the traffic in sight"...."Follow that traffic, number three, cleared to land."

Quoting NathanR (Thread starter):
Do airplanes that just took off from that runway have to be a certain distance away before approaching airplanes can be cleared?

Not to issue a landing clearance.

Quoting NathanR (Thread starter):
When is the latest an airplane can be cleared for landing? (about how many miles?)

The latest a landing clearance can be issued is just prior the aircraft crossing the threshold.



"Did he say strap in or strap on?"
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4745 times:



Quoting P3Orion (Reply 4):
The latest a landing clearance can be issued is just prior the aircraft crossing the threshold.

If I was getting close to being over the threshhold and hand't been cleared to land, I'd probably be initiating a go-around...landing without a clearance is a big no-no. Usually means a nice chat with the FSDO...



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineAcabgd From Serbia, joined Jul 2005, 655 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4738 times:

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 4):
The latest a landing clearance can be issued is just prior the aircraft crossing the threshold.

I would rather say up to the minimums or IM.

[Edited 2008-01-13 16:36:39]


CSud,D9,MD8x,D10,Trid,BAC1,A30,31,319,320,321,33,346,B71,72,73,74,75,76,77,L10,S20,A42,A72,T13,T15,F50,F70,F100,B146
User currently offlineP3Orion From United States of America, joined May 2006, 544 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4736 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 5):
If I was getting close to being over the threshhold and hand't been cleared to land, I'd probably be initiating a go-around

Well yes, that's the absolute latest we can issue a clearence. If I was to with-hold a clearence to land (tight spacing on final) I will prep the pilot on initial contact. American eight fifty, continue, expect landing clearence on short final, due to spacing." and if the previous arrival is not off the runway by the time American is over the approach lights, American would be going around.

[Edited 2008-01-13 16:42:46]

[Edited 2008-01-13 16:44:52]


"Did he say strap in or strap on?"
User currently offlineAirPortugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3566 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4646 times:

I have been told on several occasions to expect a late landing clearance, usually because of an aircraft that the tower is trying to get out in front of me...

I usually get it by the time im a 1/4 from the runway...getting ready for the go-around  Wink



A,G,A...nobody rides for free
User currently offlineSCCutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5484 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4637 times:

I'd admit to having flown along 10' above the runway (a long runway), waiting for a slowpoke to clear the runway and the tower to issue the landing clearance... ready to go around, but not really wanting to.

And there was this one time, when I was inbound from the west to my home 'drome (KADS, Addison), knowing well that the runway was to be closed at 10:00 for maintenance. As soon as I checked in with Regional Approach (DFW), the app controller asked me if I was aware that the runway was NOTAMed to close at 2200 local (this is, maybe, 21:50-ish?)- I told him that I was, and that any routing help he could give would be *most* appreciated, and he chuckled, said he'd "see what he could do." He gave me direct DFW over the top at 3,500', which I dearly love to do, not so unusual, but what was different was his handoff to ADS TWR the instant I was past the centerline of DFW.

I checked in with ADS TWR instanter, and they cleared me to land immediately- I had my landing clearance 8-10 minutes before I landed. Of course, the airport manager could do nothing about closing the runway while there was an aircraft cleared to land- it was "my runway." The lights were doused and the runway closed as soon as I cleared the active.

We have great controllers here!



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4611 times:



Quoting SCCutler (Reply 9):
I'd admit to having flown along 10' above the runway (a long runway), waiting for a slowpoke to clear the runway and the tower to issue the landing clearance... ready to go around, but not really wanting to.

That is something that gets incorrectly applied/intereputed quite often.....the separation standard is from the landing threshold and makes no difference how long you fly over the runway at 10' or 200'!! But I know your intent and appreciate your help as always in making the tower job easier and more fun!  Smile



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31660 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4590 times:

Clearence to Land does not necessary mean the Runway is vacant.It could mean that it would be vacant when you are about to land.In case the aircraft on the Runway has not vacated it for an abnormal reason.a Go-around would be needed to be undertaken.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineRendezvous From New Zealand, joined May 2001, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4564 times:

In New Zealand you don't get a landing clearance until the runway is clear.

User currently offlineMhodgson From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2002, 5047 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4541 times:



Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 2):
When I fly (just training) I often get cleared to land before another plane is off the runway, there is a special term they use for it but i cant remember

Land After

IIRC it can only be done in daylight, as long as the 2 aircraft can see each other (thus on some sloped runways it can't be done), as long as aircraft types are similar (as regards approach speed and braking performance). It is quite common at Oxford on busy days, as Seneca's in the pattern with Eurostars create some interesting spacing nightmares!



No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4514 times:



Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 2):
When I fly (just training) I often get cleared to land before another plane is off the runway, there is a special term they use for it but i cant remember,

In the U.S. it is called anticipated separation.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineAirPortugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3566 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4463 times:

Whatever happened to the proposal to eliminate "Position and Hold"?

It was brought up some time ago after some near-incidents...



A,G,A...nobody rides for free
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5394 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4456 times:



Quoting Rendezvous (Reply 12):
In New Zealand you don't get a landing clearance until the runway is clear.

Yes, let's be careful here. AFAIK the rules are different for the USA and Europe, and other countries... no surprize!

When I was working in the UK, you could only be 'cleared to land' if you were #1 and the runway was clear. In the USA at least, this is certainly not the case ... 'anticipated' or not.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineEGTESkyGod From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1712 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4439 times:
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Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 2):
there is a special term they use for it but i cant remember,

The term you're referring to is "Land After"... this means you are cleared to land but not until the other aircraft has fully cleared the runway.



I came, I saw, I Concorde! RIP Michael Jackson
User currently offlineEdnovak From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4381 times:



Quoting AirPortugal310 (Reply 15):

Position and hold has been retained for now, but with additional requirements for ATC, including phraseology and staffing.

Quoting EGTESkyGod (Reply 17):

In the US this would be called a "conditional clearance", and is not allowed. But "anticipated separation" is permitted.


User currently offlineSoku39 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1797 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 11 hours ago) and read 4208 times:



Quoting AirPortugal310 (Reply 15):
Whatever happened to the proposal to eliminate "Position and Hold"?

I believe they can still do it, however they are not allowed to issue this at night.



The Ohio Player
User currently offlineMoose135 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2291 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (6 years 6 months 8 hours ago) and read 4155 times:



Quoting Soku39 (Reply 19):

Quoting AirPortugal310 (Reply 15):
Whatever happened to the proposal to eliminate "Position and Hold"?

I believe they can still do it, however they are not allowed to issue this at night.

Yes, it is used - just the other day I was out spotting at JFK, and heard any number of guys get "position and hold" instructions. Typically happened for spacing purposes - after a heavy departure, the controller gave an RJ or 737 instructions for "position and hold" until there was sufficient spacing to clear the RJ.



KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21424 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (6 years 6 months 6 hours ago) and read 4117 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 5):
If I was getting close to being over the threshhold and hand't been cleared to land, I'd probably be initiating a go-around...landing without a clearance is a big no-no. Usually means a nice chat with the FSDO...

Or just fly down the runway and ask for confirmation (see below).

Quoting Acabgd (Reply 6):
I would rather say up to the minimums or IM.

Tower has no idea what the crew's minimums are. It may not be what is published on the approach plate.

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 9):
I'd admit to having flown along 10' above the runway (a long runway), waiting for a slowpoke to clear the runway and the tower to issue the landing clearance... ready to go around, but not really wanting to.

I've done that too once, and would do it again if the runway was long enough and traffic allowed (it was about 10,000ft long and I was in a PA28, and it was just me and the guy who was slow getting off the runway). Sure beats going around.

Quoting Soku39 (Reply 19):
I believe they can still do it, however they are not allowed to issue this at night.

I believe they can, but need to have certain staffing requirements. The times my flights have been refused position and hold at night are in either the dead of night or wee hours of the morning when there's probably only one or two people in the tower.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineSoku39 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1797 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (6 years 6 months 4 hours ago) and read 4089 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 21):
The times my flights have been refused position and hold at night are in either the dead of night or wee hours of the morning

hmm interesting, I guess I'll have to ask my ATC instuctor whether or not the 7110.65 bans it exlusively, or if it's a terminal by terminal kind of thing. He mentioned something about the ban on night position and hold being introduced after that 1900 got landed on, out at L.A. I'm sure the truth is somewhere between our two statements though. At any rate I'll only accept it if I think it's safe no matter what time of day (or night) it's issued.  

[Edited 2008-01-15 21:39:30]


The Ohio Player
User currently offlineP3Orion From United States of America, joined May 2006, 544 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (6 years 6 months 3 hours ago) and read 4078 times:



Quoting Soku39 (Reply 22):
At any rate I'll only accept it if I think it's safe no matter what time of day (or night) it's issued.

If the controller is trying to expedite your departure with a "squeeze play" and you refuse; don't complain.



"Did he say strap in or strap on?"
User currently offlineSoku39 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1797 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (6 years 6 months 3 hours ago) and read 4066 times:



Quoting P3Orion (Reply 23):
If the controller is trying to expedite your departure with a "squeeze play" and you refuse; don't complain.

...but of course, I just like being safe, If I have to wait another 6 or 7 mins for, 2 or 3 other guys to get down than so be it. I've had much worse with 3 or 4 in the pattern+arrivals at an uncontrolled field.



The Ohio Player
25 Bond007 : Correct. The night restriction was/is only for intersection departures, and that's still OK if other conditions are met (departure only runway for ex
26 IAHFLYR : Bingo Jimbo! You're correct.....and IIRC under the "current" rules as they change way to often now days, that document has to be reviewed by the loca
27 NWA ARJ : You are correct here except since the Lexington Kentucky crash you cannot combine all three positions together at night. You can only combine ground
28 Post contains images CptSpeaking : I've heard of several instances in ATL where in the heat of the rush, somebody couldn't get a word in edgewise on the radio then forgot to check in w
29 Soku39 : Hey Bond thanks, that totally makes sense for departure only runways and busy terminals, I was just looking through the eyes of a 172 etc... guy, who
30 Post contains images ATCT : Technically thet could close the runway as neither ATC nor Pilots own the runway. It is Airport Ops/Management turf. Then ATC would send you around.
31 Mr AirNZ : Not quite. ATC will often issue clearance before the runway is clear eg "ATR vacating right, cleared to land" or "Beech departs ahead, cleared to lan
32 Post contains images Soku39 : Well I'm not exactly in the big show yet, the most I've done is shooting an ILS (in IMC to 300 feet above Cat 1 mins) into MDW 5kts below Vne in a 17
33 SCCutler : Well, one supposes, the airport sponsor always has the ability to do what it chooses (ask Mayor Daley, the dirtbag), but my experience has been that
34 CosmicCruiser : Just for the record, I was cleared to land while still no. 2 for the runway behind another heavy on a 1 mile final at CDG night before last. Also posi
35 NWA ARJ : This is what I pulled from the 7110.65 3−10−6. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION Landing clearance to succeeding aircraft in a landing sequence need not be
36 FlyMKG : A the school I teach at landing clearances are given whenever the pilot has the plane he is following in sight. All planes must report abeam the numbe
37 NWA ARJ : Reference IAHFLYR reply # 10. I am not sure where you teach at. But it does not matter if you are 10 feet or 100 feet off of the runway. In the US it
38 IAHFLYR : Nope, not one thing as I read the book of rules!
39 IAHFLYR : You actually allow a student to operate in that manner? WOW, things sure have changed since I was being given flight instruction.
40 FlyMKG : I don't have time to practice go arounds with students all day. When the controller has 6 guys in the pattern, 2 inbound for full stops, and 3 on pra
41 IAHFLYR : I'm glad they have tricks to use however, those tricks from what you wrote sure appear to be an interesting application of the .65's paragraph 3-10-3
42 Post contains images FlyMKG : After reading this again it says nothing about having to go around if you havn't been given a clearance by the threshold. It says that the controller
43 Post contains images IAHFLYR : Got ya, that makes way more sense. I wasn't told to read it when getting my private, only that situations may happen and if so here is a reason why e
44 ATCT : Sounds like a good day to go elsewhere and do t.g's. Otherwise I as a controller will go "Unable Closed Traffic, say intentions" My max ive ever done
45 Post contains images IAHFLYR : Yes you do. You kids are always sending somebody around because you slowed the first 10 arrivals for some unknown reason!!!!
46 Soku39 : Even if you do go somewhere else to do touch and gos you still have to come back home... which is generally when it gets real busy, at the end of a f
47 AirPortugal310 : Ill second that one. For what its worth, you ladies and gentlemen do have the uncanny ability to impress no matter how crazy busy it is... and I used
48 Post contains images IAHFLYR : Even to those who work at spots which don't have all the training flights?
49 Post contains images ATCT : Training flights....we dont do those do we DS? Unless you count every Flagship flight (Pinnacle).....
50 NWA ARJ : I hear ya guys on that one. That company needs to get their shit together. Today one sat at the end of the runway for one hour before the dispatchers
51 Post contains images IAHFLYR : Oh you are so.....................
52 Viscount724 : I'm fairly sure that at some point in the past aircraft weren't cleared to land in Canada until the runway was definitely clear of other traffic. Whe
53 Post contains images CosmicCruiser : ....and a meteor hit the left aileron causing it to roll violently left straight into the path of the 3 UFOs in a stationery hold just off airport pr
54 Copter808 : "Bettin' on the come" (outcome)
55 Dragon6172 : I recall when I was in the Marines, we were told to hover over the numbers to wait for an aircraft to back taxi and clear the runway. Once the guy cl
56 Post contains images HAWK21M : Watching a helicopter following a line to hover/taxi & land seems amusing. The feeling is why not just land on the Helipad location. Yup I know the r
57 Dragon6172 : I flew in H-46s, we had wheels.
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