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Long Term Pilot Shortage  
User currently offlineCloudy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3473 times:

The military is using fewer and more expensive aircraft, so even in periods of high defense spending fewer military pilots are trained now. There are a lot fewer fully licenced general aviation pilots nowdays, and becoming a transport pilot the civilian way is so arduous that it is comparable to the process of becomming a major league baseball player . Except professional baseball players finally do get the big bucks in the end, IF they make the major leagues. A mainline airline pilot, however, is rewarded only with the first reasonable wages in his entire working life. Plus, he has to travel all the time and has little job security.

Cold war trained pilots will have to retire eventually. Every year there is less glamour in flying, especially commercial flying. Someday the industry will have to pay what other industries pay for people with very high responsibility and skill requirements - yet labor costs are a big burden to airlines even as they are. Where in the heck will the airline industry get the qualified pilots it needs 20-30 years from now?

89 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4679 posts, RR: 77
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3438 times:
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Quoting Cloudy (Thread starter):
Where in the heck will the airline industry get the qualified pilots it needs 20-30 years from now?

Start, implement and manage a meaningful cadet scheme. It works for European / Asian majors. Should work in the US, too.
As a matter of fact, the US seems to be the only place where pilots are not needed at the moment. Must be due to the number of chapter 11 instances and cost-cutting.
In the rest of the world, a qualified pilot basically writes his/her own ticket.
A friend of mine went a month ago on a well-known aviation magazine job research site. He got a proposition half an hour after he sent his resume. He's now dealing with four or five prospects and has difficulty making a choice...True !
Any one with a jet airliner type-rating shouldn't be out of a job, simple as that.
Of course, for you guys the other side of the pond, that means expat life, more so than for us. Some of the countries could be a challenge : India, Eastern Europe,the Far-East, the Gulf... Are you ready for it ?

Quoting Cloudy (Thread starter):
Every year there is less glamour in flying, especially commercial flying. Someday the industry will have to pay what other industries pay for people with very high responsibility and skill requirements - yet labor costs are a big burden to airlines even as they are

With such an attitude, I don't think flying is really what you are interested in. I enjoy mine and wake up at 04.00 with a smile on my face. But that's just me. And money isn't so bad, even if I can't compare it with a major league base-ball player's.
Look outside, there are some really bright spots of light !

Regards.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31712 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3368 times:

I think a more optimistic & realistic approach is needed.
Speaking from out here.Aviation is on the upswing & Pilot shortage is a lot.Currently a lot of EXPATS are flying in the country.the shortage will be around for 5-6 yrs until the freshers qualify.
But with Expansion still on with Airlines it may be longer.
The money is good too out here & pilots from other countries should not find the Accomodation,Language & lifestyle difficult.
The perks & benifits with regular leave to visit home is good too.Although staying with the Family is a different thing altogether,but then in a job,a compromise is needed to fulfill ones duty.

As mentioned most Airlines are taking in youngsters,qualified & training them up the ladder.Earlier IAF pilots used to join commercial airlines after training but the GOI regulated that a bond of 20 yrs was in place,which made shifting tough.There are quite a few defence pilots joining commercial airlines out here though,but getting youngsters up the ladder is the best way.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2084 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3222 times:



Quoting Pihero (Reply 1):
Some of the countries could be a challenge : India, Eastern Europe,the Far-East, the Gulf... Are you ready for it ?

Just because the airline is based somewhere doesn't mean a crew member must live in that city. For example an EK A345 pilot could, fly SYD-DXB-EWR-DXB-SYD and have his entire months flying done in a week or two. They're still hiring outside of their bases.


User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3152 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3215 times:

There is no shortage of people willing to shell out thousands of dollars for the chance to fly a big shiny jet. If there weren't, the regionals wouldn't be able to get away with the first year pay that they have. Places like Allatps would go out of business and the regionals would fold. Once the supply of pilots willing to work for this rate dries up (never will until "Topgun" is outlawed) the starting wages will go up.

The "glamor" of this job leaves pretty quickly. However I dare you to find an office with a better view.



DMI
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4679 posts, RR: 77
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3196 times:
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Quoting QFA380 (Reply 3):
Just because the airline is based somewhere doesn't mean a crew member must live in that city.

Quite right, but I was thinking more of the smaller types fit for pilots beginning their careers : ATRs,
s,737s...
There are bound to be some cultural changes, away from one's usual social environment.
That said, expat life can be great, provided one makes the effort of coming out of one's shell. (Personal experience talking).



Contrail designer
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4679 posts, RR: 77
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3193 times:
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Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 4):
Once the supply of pilots willing to work for this rate dries up (never will until "Topgun" is outlawed) the starting wages will go up.

You are talking, again, only of the US.
Please, just take a look at the flightglobal job section, then at the training offered...
There are a lot of positions where a pilot of some experience would find flying rewarding.
If a type-rating is considered, compare its cost to the salaries offered and you'll find out that it should be paid back in a rather short time.
As I said earlier, expat life is not for everybody (although, one also can see the trend for more demand in the EU), but it's a life choice. Why starve ( ? ) at home when I could find a good life abroad ?



Contrail designer
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17186 posts, RR: 66
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3191 times:

What I don't understand is why more US pilots don't migrate overseas. I understand not everyone wants to or can do it, but it seems to me as if there should be more working abroad, especially among the younger ones. Move abroad, make more, fly a mainline plane, have bigger job security. Compare that to working the crap routes at some US regional on the verge of collapse. I don't get it.


Quoting Pihero (Reply 1):
Of course, for you guys the other side of the pond, that means expat life, more so than for us. Some of the countries could be a challenge : India, Eastern Europe,the Far-East, the Gulf... Are you ready for it ?



Quoting Pihero (Reply 5):
That said, expat life can be great, provided one makes the effort of coming out of one's shell. (Personal experience talking).

I have been an expat for 7 years now and I am quite happy with my self-imposed exile. I have lived in California, London, Connecticut and now Hong Kong. As places to live go, you can do much worse than a Far Eastern metropolis.

It is not for everyone, of course. But I have found that if you stay open and positive it tends to work out well. Also, some form of cross cultural training is very useful. Adding to that, as a pilot you will always find people in your workplace who "speak your language".

[Edited 2008-01-21 01:59:39]


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3171 times:

This is a very interesting topic, and one that I find myself actually caught up in, in more ways than one. Myself, an aspiring airline pilot, really looks at this situation as an opportunity to get in the industry. But at the sime time, it can be hurtful.

I remember just 4-5 years ago when ASA's minimums, and most regionals for that matter was around 1500tt, but it wasn't unheard of for the average to be more like around 2500. Was pay better back then? I won't know, I wasn't that imersed in the aviation industry then. Can we expect things to get better? Who knows. I honestly see the 50 seater jet taking a BIG hit over the next 2-3 years. We are already seeing it with a lot of US regional carriers as a way to save fuel. I guess they have finally seen the error of their ways and maybe ditching turo-props for the glits of an "all jet fleet". I remember when Comair and Delta use to boast about CVG being and all jet base (be it a bunch of CR2's but all jet anyway). Now, I just saw an article about them swapping out a lot of the 40 and 50 seaters with the -900. So, can we actually expect a slowdown in the regional industry? I see ASA being hit next. The Atlanta base has really become a money looser and deliveries have come to a halt.

My father is a product of the cold-war pilot that you guys are talking about. He flew the F-4 and A-6 during is 12 year Naval carrer before he was picked up by Continental where he still is today. Things at Continental have changed drastically. I just hope that this influx of pilot hiring doesn't come and bite everyone is the behind 3 years from now because I honestly don't see this trend continuing past that. (furlough, anyone?)



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4679 posts, RR: 77
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3168 times:
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Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 7):
What I don't understand is why more US pilots don't migrate overseas. I understand not everyone wants to or can do it, but it seems to me as if there should be more working abroad, especially among the younger ones. Move abroad, make more, fly a mainline plane, have bigger job security. Compare that to working the crap routes at some US regional on the verge of collapse. I don't get it.

As usual, you express it better than I would...

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 7):
It is not for everyone, of course. But I have found that if you stay open and positive it tends to work out well. Also, some form of cross cultural training is very useful. Adding to that, as a pilot you will always find people in your workplace who "speak your language".

I consider myself richer from all the people I met, socialised and worked with and I feel privileged that they made me feel welcome to their country and their homes...
And I've flown great airplanes in the mean time.

Cheers



Contrail designer
User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3142 times:



Quoting Pihero (Reply 1):
Some of the countries could be a challenge : India, Eastern Europe,the Far-East, the Gulf... Are you ready for it ?

 checkmark  The catch is, is that several foreign carriers prefer to hire ex-captains of other carriers with lots of time, while they use a "local" person as the first officer.

One thing I never knew about, is aircraft crew leasing companies. I never knew such a business existed until recently, and that has me thinking. However, I know very little about this field.


User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4679 posts, RR: 77
Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3133 times:
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Quoting N231YE (Reply 10):
several foreign carriers prefer to hire ex-captains of other carriers with lots of time, while they use a "local" person as the first officer.

You'll find out that the F/O market is also buoyant. Basically the demand - at this time - far exceeds the output of the flying schools.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31712 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3058 times:



Quoting Pihero (Reply 11):
You'll find out that the F/O market is also buoyant. Basically the demand - at this time - far exceeds the output of the flying schools.

Thats true out here.
The number of freshers getting into flying is amazing.But most are choosing the carrier for the money.The selection procedures need to be strict enough to filter away the bad apples.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3054 times:



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 7):
What I don't understand is why more US pilots don't migrate overseas.

I have looked at going expat at various times. There are several reasons I haven't.
1. Licenses. The EU tends to look down their nose at the US license. My thousands of hours of experience count for little. Unless I am prepared to invest thousands of dollars and several months of my life to get a JAA license, I can't even apply to a EU carrier. I know there are are more carriers outside of the EU than inside, but it is an example. Other countries license conversion is not as strenuous, but still a consideration. "But it is an investment in your career", you might argue. True, but all that investment gets me is a chance to play the hiring lottery. In that regard the right to live/work can be much more complicated.

2. Visas. Many foreign carriers will not sponsor a pilot for a visa. Some will only hire citizens. There are many countries I would be happy to consider, but getting permission to live and work there is a formidable barrier. Especially for a US citizen. If I need a job, I don't have 6 months or a year to wait. Some of that may be due to reciprocating immigration policies, but that is beyond the scope of my consideration. Again, that does not get me a job, only the ability to apply.

3. Advancement/Politics. Typically a carrier will only hire expat pilots if they cannot satisfy their demand locally. When it comes to advancement, some companies are notorious for promoting the locals before the imports. If you do not speak the local language, you are out of the loop all together. When investigating certain countries, I got the impression that, as an American, they did not want me there, but might tolerate me out of necessity. I am not sure I want to move my family to that environment.

4. Family. It is much easier for a single person to go expat vs. a family type. You have to consider where your family will live and how much you will be away from them. If you are going to move them out of the country, how much will that cost? How are local conditions and schools? How are the travel benefits for family, so they can go visit the relatives? How long is the job likely to last and will it be long enough to recoup the cost?

I won't rule out going expat. If I found the right job I would apply tomorrow. However, if I can obtain halfway decent work within the US, is it worth it to go abroad? Right now the cost of it doesn't justify it.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4679 posts, RR: 77
Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3029 times:
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Lowrider,
Well detailed post and I'll try to answer some of your questions :
1/-Yes, the EU is difficult (they even have problems cross-licensing their own pilots, for Crissakes !) and unless you're hired by a US airline based in the EU, it is very difficult unless you'd go to the whole rigmarole of re-sitting some of the subjects - CAA case -.
On the other hand, as soon as you forget the EU, doors open wide.
2/-My experience is to the contrary, especially in the Middle East. Some require an NOC - non-objection certificate - from the Ministry of Interior that could take some time ( up to 3 months ) but that's about the max. If you pass their screening, they'll sponsor you. They can't otherwise.
3/-It is true that for some, the promotion of Nationals takes over an expat's seniority. A well established airline would do away with that, not forgetting that the market is very much in our favour and there is no way local recruitment will be sufficient for their growth needs. The problem, I have been told has been solved in the likes of EK...
4/- Family and kids education...Big problem to consider and one needs to get one's priorities right...
First you have to be sure that you're going to be worked to much higher levels than at home and if you're long hauling, home time will be reduced. less so on medium-haul routes.
My experience tells me that past primary school, there are fewer local possibilities than one would think..that enquiry should be made with the Foreign services of your country.
Basically, everybody either offers a number of reduced-fare tickets on their network or a return ticket for each on-duty period. Once again, that should be addressed at the interview level.
But if your kids are young enough to allow their education in the country, expat life is really worth living....problem is when you return home, the re=adjustment takes some time...Enough said.
First take a look at the FlightGlobal site, click on Jobs and make up your own mind.
Or if you have more questions, pm me or others on A.net.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3001 times:



Quoting Pihero (Reply 11):
You'll find out that the F/O market is also buoyant. Basically the demand - at this time - far exceeds the output of the flying schools.

Interesting...more for me to think about.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 13):

Thanks for the post, you bring out some really good information.

The thought of flying outside the United States for a career has crossed my mind much, thankfully I am a college student who will not have to worry about this for another 2 years (3 to 4 if I pursue an instructor position at my university). For one, I have zero-trust in the US airline industry. But, the thought of become a citizen of another country has always been a hold-back. I guess only time will tell.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17186 posts, RR: 66
Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2990 times:

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 13):
I won't rule out going expat. If I found the right job I would apply tomorrow. However, if I can obtain halfway decent work within the US, is it worth it to go abroad? Right now the cost of it doesn't justify it.

What I like about your post is that you actually researched the situation, then decided not to go expat at this time. That's rational. But I suspect lots of Americans just don't do it.

I spoke to my neighbor yesterday. She's from California. Her cousin is a pilot. He used to work for CO and now works for EK. He's loving every minute. Makes more, has more time with his family, flies bigger and newer planes, has more job security. I asked her why she thought more Americans didn't move and she said that she thinks it's a deeply cultural thing (actually she said "Americans are too provincial"). She told me that when they told their friends they were moving to Hong Kong many looked at them as if they had said they were moving to the Moon.

Quoting N231YE (Reply 15):
But, the thought of become a citizen of another country has always been a hold-back.

I think you have a misconception about the difference between citizenship and residence.

If you moved abroad, you would most likely not become a citizen of another country (unless you wanted to and were willing to wait a few years) and you would retain your US citizenship. So no problems there. I've lived in California, Connecticut, London and Hong Kong and I'm still a Swedish citizen.

My daughters are dual US/Swedish citizens (born in the US to Swedish parents) and if we move back to the US my wife and I will go down the US citizenship route as well. But that's our choice. We could remain permanent residents for life if we wanted.

[Edited 2008-01-22 16:25:05]


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2981 times:
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DATABASE EDITOR



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 7):
What I don't understand is why more US pilots don't migrate overseas. I understand not everyone wants to or can do it, but it seems to me as if there should be more working abroad, especially among the younger ones.



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 13):
Some will only hire citizens. There are many countries I would be happy to consider, but getting permission to live and work there is a formidable barrier.

What's involved with gaining permission to work for an indefinite period of time in, say, the UK or Australia? I've briefly considered jobs in both of those countries, but don't understand what is required to live and work there long-term.

I understand visas are involved, but that's about as far as I've gotten. How difficult is it to acquire one? How frequently do they typically have to be renewed?

2H4



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2978 times:



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 17):
What's involved with gaining permission to work for an indefinite period of time in, say, the UK or Australia?

Not sure about Australia, but I know for the UK you have to apply for a right to live/work visa (I can't remember the official name right now). If you have a job offer, they will probably will grant it. If not, then your claimed field will be considered. If it is an area where there is a great deal of demand and a short supply, then it will be granted. If a certain field is critically short, there is an expedited process, but otherwise it takes a few months. I think they are valid for 5 years and renewal is automatic so long as you stay employed and on the right side of the law.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17186 posts, RR: 66
Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2975 times:



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 17):
What's involved with gaining permission to work for an indefinite period of time in, say, the UK or Australia? I've briefly considered jobs in both of those countries, but don't understand what is required to live and work there long-term.

I understand visas are involved, but that's about as far as I've gotten. How difficult is it to acquire one? How frequently do they typically have to be renewed?

Immigration law is among the most arcane human artifacts ever invented, so I am not an expert. The following is my understanding. I hope someone local has better info.
- Australia. You can be sponsored by an employer. There is also a points system in which you are assigned points for various things. The younger you are, the more points. But more importantly, certain jobs get lots of points. If you are a physical therapist or doctor or (I think) pilot it's easier to get a working visa.
- UK. I don't know much about the UK system. As an EU citizen I can work and live there with no paperwork. But as far as I know it's easier to get into the UK than the US.

I would also add that if you want a piloting job, it might be easier to try and go to Dubai, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan or somewhere like that than the UK and Australia. Said countries are much more expat friendly and the pilot shortage may be greater. Here in HK, I think there are about 350 000 expats, which is quite a lot considering the total population is about 7 million. The system is set up to receive skilled labor from abroad in a way you won't find in the UK.

Being an expat can be very frustrating, but it can also be very rewarding if you enter the experience with an open mind. You will also notice that many expats extend stays or go to new expat assignments instead of returning home. That should tell you something.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4679 posts, RR: 77
Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2973 times:
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Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
I would also add that if you want a piloting job, it might be easier to try and go to Dubai, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan or somewhere like that than the UK and Australia. Said countries are much more expat friendly and the pilot shortage may be greater. Here in HK, I think there are about 350 000 expats, which is quite a lot considering the total population is about 7 million. The system is set up to receive skilled labor from abroad in a way you won't find in the UK.

Being an expat can be very frustrating, but it can also be very rewarding if you enter the experience with an open mind. You will also notice that many expats extend stays or go to new expat assignments instead of returning home. That should tell you something.

Gee ! You stole my words as I was just about to post them !
Seriously, I agree with EVERYTHING Satarlionbleu has said.
For Lowrider, I might add that the countries he mentioned (except Dubai) won't pose an education problem. As far as I know, in Dubai, it's a British curriculum...but I may be wrong.
pm follows...soon.

PS ; the British have two systems : the *right of abode* for citizens born abroad (it's a bit more complicated but that's enough) and a residence permit (for foreigners).



Contrail designer
User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2961 times:



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 16):

Thanks for the response. At least it lightens things up a bit.


User currently offlineDC8FriendShip From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 243 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2953 times:



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 8):
I guess they have finally seen the error of their ways and maybe ditching turo-props for the glits of an "all jet fleet".

It now appears that thwe Dash-8 and ATR will outlast the baby jets. But watch for more 70-100 seat regionals- they are the next big wave in short range airliners. so there will be plenty of pilot jobs out there.



Come fly the Friendly Skies of United
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17186 posts, RR: 66
Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2948 times:



Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
For Lowrider, I might add that the countries he mentioned (except Dubai) won't pose an education problem. As far as I know, in Dubai, it's a British curriculum...but I may be wrong.

Oh yeah. In HK and Singapore there are Canadian Schools, several American/International schools, French schools, German schools, Japanese schools. Take your pick.

BTW a good expat package will pay at least some school expenses.

I will also repeat my recommendation for cross cultural training. Very important.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 24, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2948 times:
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DATABASE EDITOR



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 18):



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):

Good stuff, guys. Thanks for the input.

2H4



Intentionally Left Blank
25 HAWK21M : Out here Expats are offered very frequent vacation packages to visit their families. regds MEL
26 Starlionblue : Just one of the common perks. Others include paid housing and schooling, professional management of your house "at home" if you rent it out, healthca
27 Pihero : As one can see from the above posts, one of the main advantages of an expat life is that there is -as a matter of fact - no misunderstanding : Your te
28 Starlionblue : Another "perk" is the possibility of hiring staff. While Domestic Helpers in HK are typically not paid by your company, local wages are such that most
29 Lowrider : I will be sure to mention that one to Mrs. Lowrider. I know she hates being stuck with certain chores when I am on the road. How hard is it to stay c
30 Starlionblue : Hehe yeah. I mean it's not like we mind, say, cooking. In fact we enjoy it. But now we can focus on that instead of cleaning and washing and doing di
31 AirWillie6475 : There is glamor in flying just not airline flying. Cargo, private jet operators are making more and more money and have better benefits than even som
32 Post contains images Starlionblue : Well put! Agreed. However if the airlines "hide behind" Chapter 11 on a regular basis and investors keep pumping in money on an equally regular basis
33 AirPortugal310 : Wow I never really thought of it like that. Such a simple explanation. Thank you
34 Max Q : Well, age 65 will certainly slow down Airline hiring plans and help alleviate any pilot shortage.....unfortunately.
35 HAWK21M : With more stringint medical requirements for these seniors.There would be preference for freshers given the choice by Airlines,unless the requirement
36 Lowrider : No, the same medical standards apply, at least in the US.
37 AirWillie6475 : That's true but the problem is that the application pool will dry out. I think pro flying is one of those professions that is kept alive only because
38 HAWK21M : Im surprised,Out here Pilots >60 are subject to more stringent & more frequent medicals than younger pilots,for obvious reasons. regds MEL
39 Pihero : It's a complete falsehood. just look at AF : reduced growth due to pilot shortage that the cadet scheme can't solve...more jobs to Transavia and God
40 Starlionblue : And even then most choices aren't irrevocable. Be prepared. "Luck is when preparation meets opportunity."
41 Max Q : What a bunch of c**p. Not sure how long you have been in this game 'pihero' but obviously you have not learned that much. I have worked for my current
42 Pihero : Once again, you are in the US. Period. Your situation has NO equivalent just about anywhere else in the world. The trend on *major* airlines in Europ
43 Max Q : Interesting you should mention there is another planet outside of the US. Since I came from that 'other planet' I am reasonably familiar with it ! I a
44 Pihero : You should then qualify for one of these offers instead of whingeing about your situation over there in the united States. As I said before, it's a m
45 Starlionblue : I don't understand what you're arguing about. Did you even read Pihero's posts? You cite US experience, and IMHO he's not arguing that in the US thin
46 Post contains images 2H4 : Agreed. It's beyond me how someone can voluntarily interact with others in an attempt to educate them, and then allow themselves to come across in su
47 AirPortugal310 : Im no pro here, nor do I have to be, but... I think Max Q is a regional (read CoEx) pilot for CO.. No 777/762/764 crewmember would complain about a ho
48 Lowrider : I don't know if I would strictly agree with that. Every position comes with some sort of sacrifice. Be it time at home, money, or where you live. Som
49 PhilSquares : After reading the posts and the bantering going on I thought I'd add my 2 cents worth for what ever that matters. With respect to the implementation
50 Post contains images 2H4 : And indeed, of life in general. 2H4
51 Cpd : My take on the matter is that why would I bother going through all the bother to get to be a pilot, when you can just as easily have a better paying,
52 Starlionblue : All good points, and points that are valid outside of aviation as well. I would also say that if you have a "great opportunity" and decide not to tak
53 PhilSquares : Not trying to hijack this thread, but having grown up in the US, and having moved out 13 years ago, I might be able to answer your comments. If you l
54 Pihero : Your two cents are always worth a read . Just a true story : He's a pilot, 28 with an A320 type-rating. He was selected by an airline in the Gulf...
55 Starlionblue : Hehe. I know that feeling. I don't intend ever to move back to Sweden. Not that Sweden is a horrible place, I just prefer life "out there". Very good
56 EssentialPowr : Uuhhh... maybe at the regionals, but the majors and box haulers all have thousands of applications on file at any one time. The risk is whether one c
57 Max Q : when you start out with an agressive overbearing attitude based on, as , you admit, comparatively little experience in your field I find it surprising
58 KingAirMan : I have done much research and travel abroad to HK and have talked to many expats such as "pihero" and , Let me say, Pihero's experiences match the li
59 SEPilot : As one who would have loved to have a flying career but is now too old to consider it, I would like to throw in a few thoughts. Another thing that I c
60 BoeingOnFinal : I have absolutely no say in this discussion regarding experience, but I do know long haul captains who's first place they visited after their retirem
61 Max Q : I enjoy what I do very much actually, that is not what I have been discussing, after nearly 21 years with this company, Bankruptcies, Mergers, Furloug
62 2H4 : With all due respect, Max Q, nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to work until 65. You're free to retire at 60, just like before. I h
63 PhilSquares : Welcome to the world of commercial aviation!!! I guess I'm still stumped by your post. Where in the CO contract does it say anything about all the th
64 Max Q : As far as finances are concened, there was no issue whatsoever until our retirement scheme was frozen years ago, the amount that is left is far from a
65 PhilSquares : Do you have some guarantee from CO? If not, you're in the same boat as the rest of us. Nothing is guaranteed except death and taxes. You missed my po
66 Max Q : P.Squares. This was a Government mandated change, (albeit fast tracked by special interests aided greatly by John Prater, a Continental pilot who is n
67 PhilSquares : First of all, treaty???? You need to do a little research. I will tell you if you're upset now, just wait until you see the ICAO proposal to up the a
68 Max Q : Just to refresh your memory, after ICAO introduced age 65, well over a year ago now, there were foreign carriers, yourself included ? that were then o
69 PhilSquares : Just to refresh your memory, the ICAO change was made just prior to 9/11. Some countries did not go along with the change. In addition to the US, Fra
70 Max Q : There is minimal data on over 60 pilots because this is relatively new in airline service. That is why there is a legitimate reason for only allowing
71 PhilSquares : There is a pletohria of aging studies. How could you make such a statement? Do you think the change within ICAO was just based on someone's wishes? R
72 Starlionblue : Hear hear. I'm not a pilot but there are always "ways out". I knew 10 years ago that being a pilot in the US did not make for safe and worry free emp
73 Pihero : Amen.
74 Post contains images SEPilot : My reaction to when anyone raises the age 60 question is to smell a red herring. People's ability is affected by age, that is without question. But o
75 2H4 : If pilots over 60 are inherently unsafe, how do you explain the fact that so many of them have been successfully passing checkrides in the rest of th
76 Max Q : P Squares.If there is a 'plethora' of aging studies on pilots in AIRLINE service over 60 then why not show me just one. Pretending this problem is not
77 Post contains images 2H4 : PhilSquares isn't "pretending the problem is real". He (and the rest of us) are looking for evidence that supports your claim that pilots over age 60
78 Max Q : There is already evidence. The regulators insistence that there be a 'babysitter' or other pilot under 60 in the cockpit at the same time. Explain tha
79 Pihero : 2H4, There is at least one evidence as the only country that has gone backwards on this subject is mine. Until 1995, the age limit was 65, as atteste
80 Max Q : Age 60 pilot retirement was instituted in the US by the head of the FAA at the time, Pete Quesada. Pete was a retired air force general, some say the
81 2H4 : Do we know for a fact that this requirement is based on actual evidence and/or data that proves pilots over 60 present a safety hazard of some kind?
82 Post contains images SEPilot : I would love to; I'm sure I could find a DC-3 flight somewhere. How about a DC-6, or a Connie ? As a matter of fact, the military is flying B-52's an
83 Max Q : Do you know for a fact that the requirement for one pilot under 60 is NOT based on safety considerations. And if it is 'politics' whose are they, and
84 2H4 : No, I don't. And you don't know for a fact that it is, so please stop suggesting otherwise. I'm prepared to accept your argument if sound data and/or
85 Flighty : That's not really true. 65 year olds have inferior reaction time, mental acuity than 60 year olds or 50 year olds. There is plenty of science data on
86 Max Q : Ah '2h4' There is no other explanation as you well know, you also seem unable to answer what 'politics' are responsible for having a safety pilot unde
87 Post contains images 2H4 : That's because I don't know precisely what politics are responsible for this. I only suspect that to be the case, and I'm looking for data and/or evi
88 Post contains links PhilSquares : Just some interesting reading. Plenty to digest if anyone is interested. http://www.flightsafety.org/hf/hf_jan-feb96.pdf
89 Max Q : And if you look at this interesting and I think, accurate survey you will notice their theory of greater pilot longevity is based on them retiring at
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