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Aircraft Sytems Design - Resources Help Req  
User currently offlineGolfOscarDelta From India, joined Feb 2008, 169 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4027 times:

Hi Guys,

I'm working on a project for grad school which involves modeling the internal architecture of systems in an aircraft; I need to be able to create computer code that represents every component part and subsystem. In order to do that I need specific information about all MAJOR components that are present in an aircraft.

What I'm currently looking for is resources that will give me
1. How systems in an aircraft are classified viz. Hydraulics, Pneumatics, Electrical, ECS etc.
2. Specifics about components in each system e.g. if I consider the Hydraulic system and then specifically the pumps; then specifics related to the pump's such as flow rates, max pressure that the pump can handle, type of pump, input power that the pump takes in and the form of input power.

One of my friends suggested that I look in a book called "Transport Category Aircraft Systems (AIP, Inc. Training Manual) by Thomas W. Wild pub. By Jeppesen Sanderson". It is supposed to be a good maintenance manual and guide and gives good schematics of systems. But I did not find any details about specific components. So now I was wondering if any of you can suggest a resource (book/manual/website/anything else) which would give me the information I seek i.e. anything better than the book previously mentioned.

Now I've been a visitor to the forums since the last couple of years and didn't really have the means to become a member until I got my first paycheck yesterday Big grin , and the first thing I bought with my paycheck was a membership to A.net  checkmark  . Cheers!!!

Anyway I've seen a lot of helpful and experienced people around here, and I hope I can get some directions as to where to look.

Thanks a lot in advance

BTW if this is in the wrong forum, please feel free to redirect me to post this on the right one.

 crossfingers 

10 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4022 times:



Quoting GolfOscarDelta (Thread starter):
What I'm currently looking for is resources that will give me
1. How systems in an aircraft are classified viz. Hydraulics, Pneumatics, Electrical, ECS etc.

http://www.smartcockpit.com

FCOM (Flight Crew Operations Manual) for most aircraft is available here and will give you pretty good highlevel systems descriptions. The general breakdown of systems is done to the ATA code standard (http://www.aviationparts.com/scodes.html).

Quoting GolfOscarDelta (Thread starter):
2. Specifics about components in each system e.g. if I consider the Hydraulic system and then specifically the pumps; then specifics related to the pump's such as flow rates, max pressure that the pump can handle, type of pump, input power that the pump takes in and the form of input power.

This is going to vary a *lot* from aircraft to aircraft...for any particular one, this type of data will be buried in the aircraft design documents but can usually be found in the CMM's (Component Maintenance Manuals). Unfortunately, this isn't usually readily available to the public. I would make friends quickly with a sympathetic mechanic or engineer with access to the manuals for the aircraft you want to model.

What you're asking for is the information that's needed to program a simulator, so you may want to try talking to CAE and the other big sim companies for help.

Quoting GolfOscarDelta (Thread starter):
first thing I bought with my paycheck was a membership to A.net

I'm not to sure if this is a cause for celebration or remorse, but it shows an impressive dedication to aviation. Welcome aboard!

Tom.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9633 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4021 times:

You're in a somewhat difficult place in that you are asking for proprietary information. If you have access to an aircraft maintenance manual, then you will be able to get a good description of systems. If you look at the different chapters, you will see decriptions of everything as in, hydraulics, environmental control, flight deck, flight controls, landing gear, etc. However you are not going to see specifics about the components. You will not see drawings of how they work, but rather get a list of their capabilities. Companies keep their designs secret so that their competitors cannot duplicate them.

The information that you want is mostly accessible in an aircraft maintenance manual. Check to see if you have access to one at your university. The manuals have thousands of pages of information about everything in the airplane.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineFr8Mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5414 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3997 times:

Wow, that's a mighty tall order and probably impossible without direct access to the AMM, CMM, AFM and a couple of other M's, all of which tend to be proprietary to the manufacturer and the operator. There should be a lot of open source material on systems classifications (i.e. ATA classification). Some component manufacturers' websites may be able to shed light on the nuts and bolts of their individual products.


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2556 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3977 times:



Quoting GolfOscarDelta (Thread starter):
I'm working on a project for grad school which involves modeling the internal architecture of systems in an aircraft; I need to be able to create computer code that represents every component part and subsystem. In order to do that I need specific information about all MAJOR components that are present in an aircraft.

Modelling all the systems in any depth is a huge task. Several man-years work on a full flight simulator.

Quoting GolfOscarDelta (Thread starter):
What I'm currently looking for is resources that will give me
1. How systems in an aircraft are classified viz. Hydraulics, Pneumatics, Electrical, ECS etc.
2. Specifics about components in each system e.g. if I consider the Hydraulic system and then specifically the pumps; then specifics related to the pump's such as flow rates, max pressure that the pump can handle, type of pump, input power that the pump takes in and the form of input power.

1. The ATA classify all systems and sub-systems. Each major system has a two digit code. This is a link to a list of ATA chapter numbers:

http://www.s-techent.com/ATA100.htm

2. www.smartcockpit.com gives fairly detailed system descriptions for many aircraft types, but not enough to model them from. It would at least give you an idea of the complexity involved.



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offlineGolfOscarDelta From India, joined Feb 2008, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3950 times:

Thanks Guys,

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 1):
this type of data will be buried in the aircraft design documents but can usually be found in the CMM's

That is some really valuable advice, i will look into it.....

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 1):
The general breakdown of systems is done to the ATA code standard (http://www.aviationparts.com/scodes.html)



Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 4):
1. The ATA classify all systems and sub-systems. Each major system has a two digit code. This is a link to a list of ATA chapter numbers:

http://www.s-techent.com/ATA100.htm



Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 3):
There should be a lot of open source material on systems classifications (i.e. ATA classification)

I did look at the ATA classification but however for my project we need to go by different system of classification and the ATA chapters are helpful but not very.....however they do provide a good starting point for the groundwork.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):
You're in a somewhat difficult place in that you are asking for proprietary information

That is true ..... but i guess thats the way the academia and the industry works...  Smile

Thanks a lot again guys.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9633 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3935 times:



Quoting GolfOscarDelta (Reply 5):
I did look at the ATA classification but however for my project we need to go by different system of classification and the ATA chapters are helpful but not very.....however they do provide a good starting point for the groundwork.

How do you want to break things further down than classifications into systems?

You could break them down further into categories, but there isn't really a standard. For example ECS and be broken into high and low pressure. Hydraulics can be broken into sections on the airplane such as wheel well, tail section, steering, etc.

What are you actually trying to model and how do you plan on doing it? With your example on hydraulic pumps, that information is actually very hard to get even when you have almost unlimited access to information. It's quite a challenge to find out the specifications about different components. The only sources I know are the source controlled drawings and then the supplier drawings. Both of those are going to be covered with the word Proprietary. To the public, you will find out normal operating capacity such as the hydraulic system is 3000, but beyond that you will not see the max pressure although I can tell you that the max pressure rating is usually 3500psi, but some components are rated to 4500psi for the majority of the Boeing planes. The one big difference is the 787 which will have 5000psi hydraulic systems.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineGolfOscarDelta From India, joined Feb 2008, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3866 times:



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6):
How do you want to break things further down than classifications into systems?

You could break them down further into categories, but there isn't really a standard. For example ECS and be broken into high and low pressure. Hydraulics can be broken into sections on the airplane such as wheel well, tail section, steering, etc.

The systems need to be broken down based on funtionality. Thats all i can say, I'm not sure my prof will agree if i give out the details before the results are published (sorry about that)

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6):
What are you actually trying to model and how do you plan on doing it?

The whole point is, to model different aircraft architectures/configurations and then figure out which is the best architecture in terms of sizing related parameters such as weight, volume and power req of each system, for which i need a model of all systems present in an aircraft.


User currently offlineTod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1725 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 3830 times:



Quoting GolfOscarDelta (Reply 7):
The whole point is, to model different aircraft architectures/configurations and then figure out which is the best architecture in terms of sizing related parameters such as weight, volume and power req of each system, for which i need a model of all systems present in an aircraft.

Pretty big task. I've been designing commercial aircraft systems for almost 30 years and haven't got that far yet.

Good luck. Like they guys above mentioned, if you can get ahold of an AMM or two you can get a good overview of how things work. Boeing AMM's are pretty good about describing the functions of each system at the start of each section.

Tod


User currently offlineAbnormal From UK - England, joined Aug 2007, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3792 times:

Just off the top of my head - Transport Canada have the airworthiness manual that describes design certification requirements in general terms. Other than that I think you'll need to visit manufacturer's websites and hopefully there they'll either specify the design requirement or highlight the features of their own. Component manufacturer's are listed in industry guides

Hope that's of some use


User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2556 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3781 times:

The big problem is that each aircraft design varies so much. That is why there is no single design architecture which is "best". Take hydraulics as an example. Some aircraft have very little or no hydraulic systems apart from wheel brakes. Others have very complex and powerful hydraulics. Sometimes hydraulic pumps are engine driven (via a gearbox), sometimes electrically driven, and sometimes pneumatically driven, occasionally all three. Some have full time pumps, some demand pumps. The power consumption of the system depends on the phase of flight and is very dynamic (big peaks for flap and gear deployment, etc). There are so many parameters and variables in just one sub-system.

Normally projects like this concentrate on a particular aircraft class and role. If you don't narrow the problem down you'll end up with a design department bigger than Boeing's to do the project. You have only given us a brief outline of the requirement, which on the face of it is an "optimise the whole world" project. There have to be some constraints othewise it is effectively infinite.

Rather than actually model the systems in detail, if you take it a level higher and define sub-system power consumption and the efficiency of each source of power supply you might have a manageable task. Component manufacturers would probably give you brochure data for things like pump mass and volume plus output characteristics which would help your analysis. You probably won't get this information from the aircraft manufacturer.



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
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