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Civil Aviation Vs Commerical - Who Has Priority  
User currently offlineArcrftlvr From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 826 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2861 times:

So,I am waiting here in PHX to take off. We pushed from the gate on time, but now we are delayed 45 minutes because of the large amount of civil aviation aircraft trying to depart.We are currently sitting on Taxiway D and I'm looking at 19 private aircraft lined up to take off. It seems they would at least try to intermix commercial with civil in an effort to minimize delays.But,all the commerical aircraft are sitting in line behind all these civil aviation aircraft.

So, my question is, wouldn't commercial aircraft have more priority over civil?

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePilotNTrng From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 897 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2851 times:

First come, first served. Unless in distress/emergency, a "lifeguard" flight, or Air Force One, ATC doesn't differentiate between general aviation and commercial flights.


Booooo Lois, Yaaaa Beer!!!
User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2851 times:

Gotta love the post-Super Bowl rush.

User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2832 times:

Yep, its first come first serve. Usually airliners dont really fly into many busy private airports (except places like HPN and SNA) and biz jets dont really fly much into busy commercial airports (ORD, ATL, etc). So, neither really affects the other that much.

But, when you have a big one time event like the superbowl, you're going to see affects like this. You also may see more biz jets blasting off with what seems like priority over the commercial jets. This is due to the fact that the commercial jets are often flying congested routes to congested airports and are dealing with things like flow control, release times, enroute spacing, etc, while the bizjets are going to a much more varied and less congested set of airports. So, the biz jets can be launched one after another while many commercial jets must wait for their alloted timeslots and such.


User currently offlineTyphaerion From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 619 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2758 times:
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A good example of this is in DAB you can view MD-80s holding short for several 172s on final every day. I always wondered what went through the minds of the Delta pilots as they waited while those Cessna's took their sweet time floating to a stop. I have to assume though that sometimes the commercial flights get a it of precedence over the local GA flights just because training flights usually are on less tight of a schedule. I have no proof of this wild assumption though, just years of spotting experience. It seemed like on occasion they would hold the little guys while a DL or CO just would taxi and take off. I figured it had to do with slots and restrictions into ATL and EWR respectively.


For some, the sky is the limit. For us, it is only the beginning... -- Jack Hunt
User currently offline57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2556 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2744 times:

Another factor to consider is that the spacing between light aircraft is less restrictive than that behind airliners. First come-first serve but ATC can get more GA birds in and out in the same time as fewer commercial aircraft.


"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
User currently offlinePilotboi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2366 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2745 times:



Quoting Typhaerion (Reply 4):
A good example of this is in DAB you can view MD-80s holding short for several 172s on final every day. I always wondered what went through the minds of the Delta pilots as they waited while those Cessna's took their sweet time floating to a stop. I have to assume though that sometimes the commercial flights get a it of precedence over the local GA flights just because training flights usually are on less tight of a schedule. I have no proof of this wild assumption though, just years of spotting experience. It seemed like on occasion they would hold the little guys while a DL or CO just would taxi and take off. I figured it had to do with slots and restrictions into ATL and EWR respectively.

You are correct - Commercial flights don't wait for ALL small aircraft waiting at DAB. But there is a reason behind it...

It is first come, first server - but that goes by who called up first. The 3 or 4 aircraft per intersection taxiway haven't all called up yet. Only the first person in line (the one with access to the runway) may call tower when ready to go. But all commercial flights use full length, so whenever they get to the end (or even while taxing, approaching the end), they call up tower. They only have to wait for the people who have already called up, which shouldn't be more then 2 or 3, and landings of course.

This is why as a student - you are sometimes 'rushed' to call up tower, so that you don't end up waiting for another half hour on the ground.


User currently offlineSoku39 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1797 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2568 times:

Uh none of the above. The correct answer would be C. The Military.  Wink


The Ohio Player
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5451 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2556 times:



Quoting Soku39 (Reply 7):
Uh none of the above. The correct answer would be C. The Military.

Uh no.

Not unless the military flight uses one of a small list of callsigns, is presidential related, lifeguard, SAR, or active defense mission (e.g. intercept), then they get the same priority as everybody else. ... and that list I mentioned is a very small percentage of military flights.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8974 posts, RR: 39
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2511 times:

Commercial aviation is private too. . .


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2491 times:



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 9):
Commercial aviation is private too. . .

Was Aeroflot of the USSR days private? Are the state owned airlines of today private?


User currently offlineArcrftLvr From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 826 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2476 times:



Quoting Soku39 (Reply 7):
Uh none of the above. The correct answer would be C. The Military.

Well, the question was, who has priority between the two; civil or commerical?


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5451 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2472 times:



Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 11):
Well, the question was, who has priority between the two; civil or commerical?

With few exceptions, everyone has the same priority anyway, military included, state-owned, privately owned, etc. etc.

I think you probably meant scheduled airline flights (Part 121) versus other traffic (GA, Corporate, Biz, Part 135 etc., in your example).

After all, apart from Military, all other traffic is 'civil' isn't it?


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2459 times:



Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 11):
Well, the question was, who has priority between the two; civil or commerical?

Answer is:

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 12):
With few exceptions, everyone has the same priority anyway, military included, state-owned, privately owned, etc. etc.

Unless there is a departure slot time that has to be met then the aircraft with a slot time has to go and has priority over the first come first serve concept.

When Houston had the 2004 Super Bowl the slot times were really tight both inbound and outbound, you missed it, you had to call and get another and those were route slot times not specifically airport times. The airlines did not have slot times so they may have had to wait in the line. Was that the case at PHX, not sure but might offer some ideas to the OP.

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 5):
Another factor to consider is that the spacing between light aircraft is less restrictive than that behind airliners.

Somewhat false, departures from the end of a runway for both aircraft there is no more spacing required unless following a B75 or a "heavy" and then the spacing is increased for all aircraft to meet the wake turbulence separationg behind the B75 or "heavy".



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineSprout5199 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1855 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2440 times:

I know I have had to do a 360 to keep the spacing correct in the 152 I fly, Going so slow I could be 3 out for 9R at PBI and have had the tower ask me to do a 360 so an MD80 or so could land on 9L. Plus I have also requested to do a 360 just to stay out of the wake turbulence of a 737(the tower doesn't consider it very bad, but in a 152, a turkey buzzard has a bad wake turbulence).

Guess what I'm saying is they are bigger so they get to go first.  Smile

Dan in Jupiter


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5451 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2413 times:



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 14):
Going so slow I could be 3 out for 9R at PBI and have had the tower ask me to do a 360 so an MD80 or so could land on 9L. Plus I have also requested to do a 360 just to stay out of the wake turbulence of a 737(the tower doesn't consider it very bad, but in a 152, a turkey buzzard has a bad wake turbulence).

Guess what I'm saying is they are bigger so they get to go first.

Right, but that isn't because any aircraft has more or less priority. It's because the safest and easiest way to get you both down on the ground is to have you at 70 kts, following far behind an MD80, rather than an MD80 1/2 mile behind you doing 140 kts. The controller is making these decisions all the time, but not because airliners have priority.



Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6206 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2319 times:



Quoting Typhaerion (Reply 4):
I always wondered what went through the minds of the Delta pilots as they waited while those Cessna's took their sweet time floating to a stop.

When I was 17 and just got my PPL, I started flying in to "busier" airports that I hadn't necessarily been to during training, so I tested that exact theory one time. I was landing to the south as AUS (Robert Mueller at the time) with a DL MD-88 holding short of the southeast runway who called tower and said "we'll be ready to go as soon as this Cessna lands" in a sort of irritated way. Then I was a little less aware (or perhaps didn't really care) about my impact on other traffic as I brazenly slowed down to 60-65 knots on long final (with a 20+ knot headwind) and delayed this Delta flight by several minutes. I haven't flown much GA in awhile, but when I do I try to minimize my impact on the airlines. Not that they have priority, per se, but because it's the courteous thing to do, especially when you're flying into airports that were principally set up to handle commercial traffic.

In college, I frequently flew out of College Station Easterwood (CLL), where it at least appeared to me the few airline flights we had (perhaps 15 or so per day in and out), were given priority. "Cessna XXX hold short of runway 34, I need to get an Eagle flight out of here". I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet, but an IFR flight does get priority over a VFR flight. A VFR flight is considered an "additional operation"--I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere. Maybe it also had to do with flow in to DFW. When the tower was closed, these folks definitely thought they had priority. I was practically cut off in the pattern when an XJet RJ buzzed in ahead of me with a "get out of my way" demeanor on the radio.

So, of course the priority is emergency traffic, and then it's pretty much first come first served. Military flights generally don't get priority (in fact, alot of times it seems like we're an afterthought--seems like the commercial guys get the more optimum handling/routing, but maybe it's just my perspective). Technically, an emergency aircraft would have priority over Air Force One, but I wonder how this would really play out in the real world. I doubt the secret service would let a C172 post any kind of threat whatsoever to the President under the guise of an "emergency". Any thoughts on this?

To clarify your OP, commercial traffic is a subset of civil traffic, so to differentiate you could call it "general aviation" if it's not airline or military.



Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21854 posts, RR: 55
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2314 times:



Quoting Typhaerion (Reply 4):
A good example of this is in DAB you can view MD-80s holding short for several 172s on final every day. I always wondered what went through the minds of the Delta pilots as they waited while those Cessna's took their sweet time floating to a stop.

I've never taken my sweet time floating to a stop in a Cessna. I know that an airliner is waiting to go, and I want to get off the runway as quickly as possible. But Cessnas are slow, and I'm not going to compromise the safety of my landing by trying to rush.

Quoting Typhaerion (Reply 4):
I have to assume though that sometimes the commercial flights get a it of precedence over the local GA flights just because training flights usually are on less tight of a schedule. I have no proof of this wild assumption though, just years of spotting experience. It seemed like on occasion they would hold the little guys while a DL or CO just would taxi and take off.

The only precedence they get is that they generally get a form of priority on approach due to the fact that it's a much more efficient use of airspace to have three planes that fly their approaches at 100kts wait for one plane that flies its approaches at 150kts. That just makes sense so that you don't have an airliner crawling up behind a training flight on final - that's only going to lead to a go-around.

ATC is required to provide an orderly and expeditious flow of all traffic, not just airliner traffic (with certain exceptions that were already mentioned in the thread).

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 13):
Somewhat false, departures from the end of a runway for both aircraft there is no more spacing required unless following a B75 or a "heavy" and then the spacing is increased for all aircraft to meet the wake turbulence separationg behind the B75 or "heavy".

I don't have my .65 in front of me, so I'm going from very shaky memory here, but isn't the spacing for Category I aircraft 3,000ft while the spacing for Category III aircraft 6,000ft (or whatever wake turbulence applies)?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2257 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
isn't the spacing for Category I aircraft 3,000ft while the spacing for Category III aircraft 6,000ft (or whatever wake turbulence applies)?

Unless they change it in the .65S that is up on 2/14! But the Category 1 dude/dudette must be turning before you launch the speedy #2 airplane etc which doesn't always happen so you have to wait, otherwise taxi fast I'll clear ya later works! haha  Smile

Quoting Jhooper (Reply 16):
I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet, but an IFR flight does get priority over a VFR flight.

Negative, IFR/VFR doesn't matter.

Quoting Jhooper (Reply 16):
Maybe it also had to do with flow in to DFW.

Bingo, think you hit the nail on the head there, the only reason or it was "aggie control".
 duck   biggrin 



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6206 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2245 times:



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 18):
Negative, IFR/VFR doesn't matter.

I stand corrected then. I was thinking about a AC I read pertaining to High Density Traffic airports like JFK.



Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineBok269 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 2104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2185 times:



Quoting Typhaerion (Reply 4):
A good example of this is in DAB you can view MD-80s holding short for several 172s on final every day. I always wondered what went through the minds of the Delta pilots as they waited while those Cessna's took their sweet time floating to a stop.

Just last week I landed (with my instructor) a 172 on rwy 34 at HPN. A FL 717 was holding short. It is pretty cool to fly with larger airplanes around.

Back in December, we taxied out in front of a S5 E170 that was holding short of the run-up pads. I can only imagine what they thought of my awful takeoff.

On my discovery flight in June, I floated the landing, causing the ZW CRJ on final to go around. Tower was not too happy, but by CFI got a kick out of it.

Training at a place like HPN is great.



"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
User currently offlineATCT From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2345 posts, RR: 38
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2141 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
I don't have my .65 in front of me, so I'm going from very shaky memory here, but isn't the spacing for Category I aircraft 3,000ft while the spacing for Category III aircraft 6,000ft (or whatever wake turbulence applies)?

Yea but if you have a real plane in front it really doesnt matter. All I use at work is 6,000 and airborne. At smaller facilities where ya mix little guys with puddle jumpers then ya I could see it becoming a factor. Frankly the only smalls I see are NetJets and FlightOptions and the occaisonal local biz-jet. (and 98% of these are Small +'s), and theyre all Cat III anyways (regarding dep seperation).

ATCT



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3152 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2109 times:



Quoting Bok269 (Reply 20):
Back in December, we taxied out in front of a S5 E170 that was holding short of the run-up pads. I can only imagine what they thought of my awful takeoff.

We were all there at one time.  Smile



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