Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?  
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7410 posts, RR: 50
Posted (6 years 7 months 5 days ago) and read 6820 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

With DL buying up the 757-231/2Q8's from the AA/TW era, can the original -232's be used on Transatlantic flights or do they lack the provisions to be modified?


Made from jets!
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 5 days ago) and read 6820 times:

I believe the aircraft can be fitted with extra tanks. AA did this with a few of their own -223s,
and called them 757-223 (ET). Of course, I would think you have to sacrifice some payload
revenue for the added weight.
This is a tech question, best left to the experts over in the tech forum.
Regards.



"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offlineIflyatldl From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1936 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 5 days ago) and read 6779 times:

Good question, I wonder if TW had theirs modified or if the package was available, or what morphed into ETOPS. I'd never heard of 757's doing Trans-Atlantic until TW.


Ah, Summer, Fenway Park, Boston Red Sox and Beer.....
User currently offlineFlyingClrs727 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 733 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6755 times:

It can be done, but it's expensive. All the parts on the plane have to be brought up to ETOPS standards as well as the maintenance facilies and mechanics. Then the plane has to be flown for several months on long flights that simulate ETOPS conditions. A friend of mine who is a retired pilot for America West said America West spent millions of dollars getting ETOPS ratiings for a subfleet of their existing 757's that is now used for flights from Phoenix to Hawaii.

It would only make sense to upgrade high MTOW 757's to ETOPS, so many of the earliest build 757's aren't worth upgrading, because the engines aren't powerful enough. That's why US Airways had to buy some ex-ATA ETOPS 757's for their ETOPS fleet. The US Airways fleet has some of the oldest 757's including many that were originally delivered to the launch customer Eastern Airlines. That's also why BA is buying used 757's for its new OpenSkies airline. Most of the original lower MTOW BA 757's have been sold off to other passenger airlines or DHL for conversion to freighters.

[Edited 2008-02-15 20:31:20]

User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6722 times:

I am not a tech expert but I believe that there are a couple errors in what has been said.

1. The fuel capacity of original and ETOPS 757s is the same, approx 75,000 pounds. I do not believe there are any extra tanks on long range 757s

2. Higher thrust engines are not needed in order for the 757 to be used for long-range flights. The original 2037 is suitable for long-range flights and I believe the ex-TW/AA 757s are 2037 powered.

---

3. The prime determinant of whether the 757s can operate on long-haul (8 plus hour flights) is the takeoff weight, which is dependent primarily on the wing structure, which was strengthened later in the 757 production run. Max TOW on the 757 is about 255K pounds; I believe DL's original 757s are in the 232K range.

4. ETOPS and long-range flight are not the same thing. The lower weight 757s can obtain ETOPS certification; they have the range to be able to operate 6 hr plus routes which could trigger the need for 180 minute ETOPS.


User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7410 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6710 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Iflyatldl (Reply 2):
Good question, I wonder if TW had theirs modified or if the package was available, or what morphed into ETOPS. I'd never heard of 757's doing Trans-Atlantic until TW.

BA flew 757's between BHX and JFK in the 1990's

Quoting FlyingClrs727 (Reply 3):
It can be done, but it's expensive.

I'm told that the 757-5500 series in our fleet cannot be, or runs along the lines of it being too expensive.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6708 times:



Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 1):
I believe the aircraft can be fitted with extra tanks. AA did this with a few of their own -223s,
and called them 757-223 (ET).

That just isn't true. The ET stands for ETOPS, not Extra Tank.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
2. Higher thrust engines are not needed in order for the 757 to be used for long-range flights.

Really depends. UA uses 2040s on their ETOPS fleet.

It all has to do with runway capabilities and your desired uplift. I doubt a 2037 can get a plane up at MTOW in all cases and weather.

NS


User currently offlineMark5388916 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6703 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
I do not believe there are any extra tanks on long range 757s

I do nto know of any civilian/commercial airlines with extra tanks but I know the USAF C-32 (aka Air Force 2) has them.

Mark



I Love ONT and SNA, the good So Cal Airports! URL Removed as required by mod
User currently offlineIflyatldl From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1936 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6686 times:



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 5):
Quoting Iflyatldl (Reply 2):
Good question, I wonder if TW had theirs modified or if the package was available, or what morphed into ETOPS. I'd never heard of 757's doing Trans-Atlantic until TW.

BA flew 757's between BHX and JFK in the 1990's

That''s just it, I'd never heard of 757's doing Trans-Atlantic until TW and then BA not much later-mid 90's. I just wonder how it evolved. TW just sticks in my mind as the first.



Ah, Summer, Fenway Park, Boston Red Sox and Beer.....
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6680 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 6):
Really depends. UA uses 2040s on their ETOPS fleet.

I believe UA went with higher thrust engines because they are used from Hawaii which has a number of airports with short runways.

Boeing's website shows performance statistics for the 757 at 255K max TOW with 2037 engines. 2040s are not needed for 255K MTOW. The 757 is one of the best powered commercial aircraft available. Even the lowest thrust 757 is better powered than many other aircraft.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9400 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6680 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 6):
Really depends. UA uses 2040s on their ETOPS fleet.

I think I found the PR when TWA ordered these birds.
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/1996/news.release.960212.html

note If this is the right PR then they are 2037s



yep.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21528 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6627 times:

People are confusing ETOPS with TATL. There is no requirement that an ETOPS 757 can reach the USA from Europe. 737NG are ETOPS capable but the standard passenger configurations can't reach across the Atlantic.

So if the question being asked is: can the original DL 757s be modified for TATL, the answer is it would cost too much.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineFlyingClrs727 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 733 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6596 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):
People are confusing ETOPS with TATL. There is no requirement that an ETOPS 757 can reach the USA from Europe.

No, but why go to all the expense of converting a non ETOPS 757 to ETOPS if not for routes of transatlantic range. It's possible to buy brand new 737's with an ETOPS 180 certification directly from the factory for routes that don't require that much range. According to what I heard, it took America West almost a year per plane to get ETOPS certificates.


User currently onlineSXDFC From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 2349 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6564 times:

Can someone clarify please what the numbers 2040 5500 mean ? I am guessing engine types?


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineDL_Mech From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1951 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6550 times:



Quoting SXDFC (Reply 13):
Can someone clarify please what the numbers 2040 5500 mean ?

5500 is a NWA ship series IIRC.

The 2040 is a Pratt and Whitney engine.

2XXX is a series 2000 engine

X0XX is for a Boeing (1=Airbus,2=Illyushin,3=Not used, 4=MDC)

XX40 is 40K lbs of thrust



This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12146 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6516 times:

All ETOPS is an operations for an airplane with only two engines more than 103, 120, 137, 180, 210, or 240 minutes from a suitable landing airport for that airplane type. This does not exclusively mean over water operations. It can also cover ice covered areas (Syberia, Antarticia, parts of Canada or Alaska), and large mountainous areas (Canada, Alaska, China, Tibet, Afghanistan, etc.).

ETOPS has nothing to do with the original airplane range, as long as it can fly at least 103 minutes, or more from a suitable alternate airport.

ETOPS is mostly an airplane maintenance and reliability requirement, with some additional requirements for the crew.

If an airline elected to, they could obtain an ETOPS for a B-737-200 or a DC-9. It is just not economical enough to get ETOPS for those types.

So, to answer the original question in this thread, yes, the original DL B-757-232s (with the 232,000lb MTOW) can obtain an ETOPS qualification. But, it will cost DL a lot of money to do it.

Extra fuel tanks are a seperate question. Yes, they can be installed, but the same MTOW still must be applied unless there isdditional modifications made to the airplane. The USAF C-32A/Bs are all 255,000lb MTOW and have additional fuel tanks, carrying up to 100,000lbs of fuel, total. But these airplanes do not fly with 255 passengers and 20 tonnes of cargo.


User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6459 times:



Quoting Jetjack74 (Thread starter):

Why would DL need to modify their own 757s when they can just wait for the batch of ex-NW birds to arrive?  Big grin

 duck 


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6337 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 15):

SPOT ON......!!!! ETOPS has NOTHING to do with life jackets, rafts and fuel takes....It has to do with the way the plane is maintained and what systems are installed on the plane. You can not take any old 757 and make it ETOPS.. it must first meet the basic requirments.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineDl757md From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1562 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6326 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 15):
ETOPS has nothing to do with the original airplane range, as long as it can fly at least 103 minutes, or more from a suitable alternate airport.

ETOPS is anything over 60 minutes at one engine out cruise speed from the nearest suitable alernate airport.



757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6306 times:

Whats this talk about extra tanks on a B752.Never heard of them on the B752 atleast.If present where would it be in the Aft bulk hold?

ETOPS require certain Equipment to be present & serviceable in adequate numbers.
Remember the HMG.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineMovingtin From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6275 times:



Quoting FlyingClrs727 (Reply 12):
According to what I heard, it took America West almost a year per plane to get ETOPS certificates

Etops is a program, It took AW a year to get ETOPS certified, Not a certificate for each plane. If an airline does not have sufficiant experiance with an Equipment type, they must prove over time that they can operate it safely.


User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4007 posts, RR: 34
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6225 times:



Quoting FlyingClrs727 (Reply 3):
That's also why BA is buying used 757's for its new OpenSkies airline. Most of the original lower MTOW BA 757's have been sold off to other passenger airlines or DHL for conversion to freighters.

BA is going to use B757 that are currently in BA service for OpenSkies. They are ETOPS built aircraft. They will have winglets fitted.
All the original BA B757 have left the fleet and been converted to freighters by Boeing. They were never ETOPS aircraft.


User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1653 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6218 times:



Quoting Movingtin (Reply 20):
Etops is a program, It took AW a year to get ETOPS certified, Not a certificate for each plane

You are exactly right...FedEx is heavy into the ETOPS program for the 777 but it seems to me they are trying to reinvent the wheel instead of picking from several airlines who operate an ETOPS program and have been through it and getting the best from their individual programs.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offline777WT From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 876 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6163 times:



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 17):
SPOT ON......!!!! ETOPS has NOTHING to do with life jackets, rafts and fuel takes....It has to do with the way the plane is maintained and what systems are installed on the plane. You can not take any old 757 and make it ETOPS.. it must first meet the basic requirments.

That is what ETOPS is about.

ie one mechanic may service the oil on one engine but may NOT service the other engine oil, he/she can crosscheck the other engine and the same goes for the other mechanic.

On the other hand, a long time ago in aero college, I was told by a professor that if a mechanic replaced a part on a plane that's ETOPS certified and flown on a ETOPS route, and the part fails...the mechainc gets the axe from the job.
Is that true?


User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4007 posts, RR: 34
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6162 times:



Quoting 777WT (Reply 23):
On the other hand, a long time ago in aero college, I was told by a professor that if a mechanic replaced a part on a plane that's ETOPS certified and flown on a ETOPS route, and the part fails...the mechainc gets the axe from the job.
Is that true?

Well it can't be, I am still working.
Seriously how can a mechanic stop a part failing in the future? It would mean that for every component changed that you had to fire someone! You wouldn't have anyone left after a few months.


25 EMBQA : The duel engine work part is true...but as far as parts failure, I doubt that.
26 HAWK21M : Unless proven to be deliberate.So No. regds MEL
27 Post contains links Miamiair : Here's some reading/throne-room material: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...agazine/aero_04/fo/fo01/index.html http://www.boeing.com/commercial/a
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
What Engines Do The DL 757-200's Use? posted Sat Aug 5 2006 08:27:20 by Usair320
Can The 732 Engines Be Converted Into 734 Engines? posted Fri Nov 16 2001 12:49:32 by Hoons90
Which Frequency Do Delta 757-200 Use For Acars? posted Tue May 1 2007 01:37:10 by Tomascubero
The Original Airbus A300 Design posted Mon May 15 2006 17:40:45 by 747400sp
Can The A380 Land Fully Loaded Pax/fuel Emergency? posted Sat Apr 29 2006 15:37:01 by Julianuk
What Will The Next Cessna Piston Be? posted Sat Nov 5 2005 12:25:11 by KBFIspotter
SOP's Of The Past That Would Be Frightening Today posted Thu Oct 27 2005 06:54:26 by 2H4
Can You Re Engine A 757? posted Mon Aug 2 2004 03:42:04 by Dc8jet
Can The Douglas DC9 Fly Into JFK posted Sat Jun 19 2004 17:32:26 by Arnand
Window Shades Must Be Up For Takeoff And Landing posted Tue Jun 8 2004 18:23:27 by Airways6max

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format