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ATC And Shuttle Launch  
User currently offlineKL773ER From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 200 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3953 times:

During a shuttle launch, how does it effect the air traffic (proceedures) around the launch vicinity?

Thankyou,
-KL

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineElite From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2006, 2793 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3932 times:

I'm not sure, but my guess is that they would direct them to go around the launch area during the launch time or something.

User currently offlineDragon6172 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1202 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3850 times:

FDC 8/7704 ZMA FL.. TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS KENNEDY SPACE CENTER OPERATIONS AREA EFFECTIVE 0803110313 THRU 0803110744. PURSUANT TO SECTION 91.143 OF THE CODE OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS TITLE 14 (CFR 91.143), FLIGHT OPERATIONS CONDUCTED BY FAA CERTIFICATED PILOTS OR CONDUCTED In AIRCRAFT OF U.S. REGISTRY ARE PROHIBITED AT ANY ALTITUDE FROM THE SURFACE TO UNLIMITED, WITHIN THE FOLLOWING AREA: BEGINNNG AT LAT. 285116N LONG. 804219W TO LAT. 290730N LONG. 803000W THENCE CLOCKWISE VIA A 30 NAUTICAL MILE ARC CENTERED ATLAT. 283703N LONG. 803647W TO LAT. 281330N LONG. 801600WTO LAT. 282501N LONG. 802399W TO LAT. 282501N LONG. 803759WTO LAT. 282501N LONG. 804144W TO LAT. 283801N LONG. 804701WTO LAT. 284911N LONG. 805044W TO LAT. 285116N LONG. 804714WTO LAT. 285116N LONG. 804219WMIAMI CENTER /ZMA/, PHONE 305-716-1589, IS THE COORDINATING FAA FACILITY AND MAY BE CONTACTED FOR THE CURRENT STATUS OF ANY AIRSPACE ASSOCIATED WITH THE SPACE SHUTTLE OPERATIONS. THIS AREA ENCOMPASSES R2932, R2933, R2934,AND PORTIONS OF W497A, W158A, AND W158C. ADDITIONAL WARNING AND RESTRICTED AREAS WILL BE ACTIVE In CONJUNCTION WITH THE OPERATIONS.PILOTS SHALL CONSULT ALL NOTAMS REGARDING THIS OPERATION.


Pretty detailed NOTAM with all the Lat-Longs. Pretty sure ATC down there is well versed on how to keep traffic clear.



Phrogs Phorever
User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3649 times:

Doesn't really have a big effect. Basically some restricted areas go hot, and they move traffic around those areas. Traffic to South Florida usually flies somewhat east of these areas without a problem, unless coming from the northwest and west, where they will likely be routed over Orlando. Orlando and Tampa traffic that normally uses the offshore routes, is moved to inland routes instead. But since the military often uses the same airspace, ATC is well practiced with these procedures and has it down to a science.

User currently offlineBeertrucker From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3558 times:

It is a short time frame but almost all flights do go over Orlando. They do not put flights out to the east cuase that is the way the shuttle launches towards.

On a side note I was out there watching the launch on the 528 causways lastnight. It was a great launch. Well anyways till it went in the low cloud cover.

For being a week night at 0228 there were so many people out there. I rode up there on my motorcycle to help find parking for myself. But I will admit for those who drove a car it was a nightmear. I talk to a husband and wife who drove up from Miami just to see the launch. I still wondering how they did not get a speeding ticket. He said he left Miami at 2300 and was up to the Cape at 0200. Not too bad on time there.

It will be a big let down when they retire the Shuttles in 2010. It is just such a great site to see. If you have never seen a launch in person you really need to plan a trip to watch one before they are all gone.



Fly HI
User currently offlineJetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2769 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3517 times:
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Quoting Beertrucker (Reply 4):
It will be a big let down when they retire the Shuttles in 2010

They announced officially its 2010. I did not hear that. I love those things its sad they have to go. I wish they would make newer better versions of them.
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineFlymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7125 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3354 times:



Quoting Beertrucker (Reply 4):
It will be a big let down when they retire the Shuttles in 2010. It is just such a great site to see. If you have never seen a launch in person you really need to plan a trip to watch one before they are all gone.

That being said I should plan to drive up there this summer and see a launch. Also so if they retire the shuttles in 2010 what are they using for human space travel rockets like the old days?



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6346 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3340 times:

I remember reading Flying magazine a few years back, too, and it had an article on this.

The FAA down there (Miami FSDO?) actually rents a King Air during space launches (not just space shuttle launches  Wink ), and chases down temorary airspace closure violators (i.e. the idiots who don't read NOTAMS or bother to get a briefing before flying...). They are airborne flying the perimeter of the closed airspace during the launch, and, IIRC, the Cape Canaveral range safety officer can vector them towards any blips that don't belong.

Quoting Beertrucker (Reply 4):
On a side note I was out there watching the launch on the 528 causways lastnight. It was a great launch. Well anyways till it went in the low cloud cover.

I know. I watched it on NASA TV over the internet last night on my laptop (happened at 23:28 local...). A rare shuttle night launch is definitely not something to be missed...  cloudnine 



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3312 times:



Quoting Flymia (Reply 6):
Also so if they retire the shuttles in 2010 what are they using for human space travel rockets like the old days?

Soyuz in the interim, then Ares/Orion once NASA finishes developing it.

Tom.


User currently offlineAPFPilot1985 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3292 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 7):
The FAA down there (Miami FSDO?) actually rents a King Air during space launches

The FAA owns plenty of King Airs and don't need to rent them.


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6346 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3282 times:



Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 9):
The FAA owns plenty of King Airs and don't need to rent them.

The shuttle launch one was rented for some reason, and I distinctly remember from the article that they had to put "F" and "A" and "A" in the passenger windows large enough so that they were visible if the aircraft was used to intercept another aircraft...



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17003 posts, RR: 67
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3258 times:

Quoting Flymia (Reply 6):
Also so if they retire the shuttles in 2010 what are they using for human space travel rockets like the old days?

It's basically "back" to throwaway boosters with the Ares family of boosters ( http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/constellation/ares/index.html ) and the Orion crew vehicle ( http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/constellation/orion/index.html ).

Hindsight is 20/20, but the shuttle, while a cool concept, was a bad idea financially. It suffered from the typical government project bloat. Originally the shuttle was a small reusable crew vehicle (like Europe's canceled Hermes) with little or no cargo. Big payloads were to go up on Atlas and Delta family boosters. But then someone had the bright idea of launching everything on the space truck. Man rating a small vehicle is one thing. Man rating the big shuttle is quite another. High cost, high dead weight, high cost of turnaround, but worst of all high risk. And if you want to develop a new version the cost is still high. Updating a small vehicle is waaaay cheaper.

In the end, customers went back to throwaway boosters, as evidenced by the growth of the Atlas and Delta programs because it was cheaper and less prone to delays. Much less dead weight. Perhaps the Air Force should have been allowed to keep it's space program, with lifting bodies on top of Titan rockets. We'll never know. In any case putting a small shuttle on top of an existing stack like Delta or Atlas gets you a lot of advantages including centerline thrust (and no pesky insulation hitting your vehicle).

The Russians, whether from prescience or limited funds, stuck with Soyuz, constantly updating it, and now fly the most reliable and tested manned vehicle out there for a fraction of the cost of the Shuttle.

NASA is not going all the way back to the 60s, though. Ares will keep the "good" bits of the shuttle program, though, the external tank and the SRBs. The orbiter is going the way of the dodo.

Don't get me wrong. A shuttle launch is a thing of beauty, and the engineering is quite something. But it wasn't a good idea.

[Edited 2008-03-11 20:01:20]


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3256 times:



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 2):
FLIGHT OPERATIONS CONDUCTED BY FAA CERTIFICATED PILOTS OR CONDUCTED In AIRCRAFT OF U.S. REGISTRY ARE PROHIBITED AT ANY ALTITUDE FROM THE SURFACE TO UNLIMITED, WITHIN THE FOLLOWING AREA:

 Confused So if you're a foreign pilot flying a non-US registered aircraft you can enter the airspace around Kennedy Space Center?


User currently offlineDALMD88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2535 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3204 times:



Quoting Beertrucker (Reply 4):
On a side note I was out there watching the launch on the 528 causways lastnight. It was a great launch. Well anyways till it went in the low cloud cover.

I wish I had been there with you. Two reasons, first night launch is the best! I remember only really two launches while I was at ERAU. The first was Challenger. The second was a awsome night launch. I watched both from DAB. I went down to the cape for a couple, but they always scrubed and the traffic sucked. The second reason, I would be sure to have fun with a guy with a BeerTrucker name.


User currently offlineDragon6172 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1202 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3194 times:



Quoting Analog (Reply 12):
So if you're a foreign pilot flying a non-US registered aircraft you can enter the airspace around Kennedy Space Center?

I got no clue. I just cut and pasted. I did see that and was wondering too though.



Phrogs Phorever
User currently offlineBladeLWS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3191 times:



Quoting Analog (Reply 12):
So if you're a foreign pilot flying a non-US registered aircraft you can enter the airspace around Kennedy Space Center?

Sure, just don't complain when the F-15's/F-22's flying CAP over the launch site start running circles around your plane and trying to explain "the use of deadly force is authorized".


User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3142 times:



Quoting BladeLWS (Reply 15):
Sure, just don't complain when the F-15's/F-22's flying CAP over the launch site start running circles around your plane and trying to explain "the use of deadly force is authorized".

Fine, but then why add the words "CONDUCTED BY FAA CERTIFICATED PILOTS OR CONDUCTED In AIRCRAFT OF U.S. REGISTRY" to the TFR? Remove that and the TFR makes sense.

Generally if you're going to shoot someone down for entering airspace during peacetime, it makes sense to tell them in advance not to enter. Somebody went through the effort to exclude foreign pilots flying non-US registered aircraft from the restrictions. Why?


User currently offline57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3137 times:

I do recall that NASA has it's own aircraft airborne during the launch period to patrol the area. I don't remember if they are T-38s or what not.


"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
User currently offline9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 711 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3039 times:
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One of the missions in FSX is to provide air cover for the launch! You're in an F-18 on a carrier and some guy will wander into the restricted area for you to...encourage down.


Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
User currently offlineBWilliams From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2803 times:



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 2):

Pretty detailed NOTAM with all the Lat-Longs. Pretty sure ATC down there is well versed on how to keep traffic clear.

I'm not a pilot, so I'm curious: obviously, IFR flights would be vectored out of the way, but do sectionals or the like have exact enough markings to allow pilots to avoid the TFR if they're flying visual? Or is there a class B in the area that would necessitate being in contact with ATC anyways?



Regards, Brad Williams
User currently offlineShyFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2790 times:



Quoting BWilliams (Reply 19):
but do sectionals or the like have exact enough markings to allow pilots to avoid the TFR if they're flying visual?

Well, yes and no. The sectionals that you'd find for sale at a pilot supply shop do not generally depict Temporary Flight Restrictions (TFRs) as the charts are printed on a 56 day cycle and many TFRs can pop up and disappear during that time (most will be unknown at the time of printing). The FAA (through a dedicated website) and some flight planning software allows for TFRs to presented graphically on the appropriate chart. Here is a current TFR for the Jacksonville, Florida area (expires 2030 UTC): http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_8_8604.html

Quoting BWilliams (Reply 19):
Or is there a class B in the area that would necessitate being in contact with ATC anyways?

Not always. A good example of this is a TFR for a forest fire in a remote location.


User currently offlineTWAL1011727 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 625 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2638 times:



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 2):
Pretty detailed NOTAM with all the Lat-Longs. Pretty sure ATC down there is well versed on how to keep traffic clear

All the referenced TFRs or notams that I've seen are usually based around the MLB VOR 004 radial at 30.6NM

KD


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