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Boeing 747-400 Reverse Thrust?  
User currently offlineKimberlyrj From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 385 posts, RR: 1
Posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 12322 times:

Hello all,

I’ve noticed when working on the Boeing 747-400 aircraft our pilots often select engines 2 and 3 for reverse thrust leaving 1 and 4 at idle. Sometimes they will use all 4, but never only 1 and 4.

Is there an operational reason for this? Or just wear and tear?

I have also noticed that the inner slats ‘fold’ away when reverse thrust is selected, is this to stop lift or to stop the slats being damaged?

Many thanks

Kimberly.

63 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePJFlysFast From United States of America, joined May 2006, 463 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 12308 times:

Do you mean while they are are taxiing out? If so they may do that in order not to use the brakes because they can get hot real fast if you use them on taxi and that makes them less affective if you need to abort a takeoff. Also if they get less wear and tear on the breaks by doing that.

User currently offline777WT From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 874 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 12308 times:

Engine 1 & 4 is closer to the edges of the runway and FOD is a concern.
I think they never use 1 and 4 due to the inboard engines thrust reverse must be used due closer to the airframe and should a problem arise with reverse thrust, there won't be much loss of yaw control.

The inner slats fold when reverse thrust is selected to protect them from FOD and the airflow from the reverse thrust damaging the slats by pushing on them trying to get past the fully extended stops. This is also due to eng 2 & 3 closer to the ground.

[Edited 2008-03-20 15:16:56]

User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 12294 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD DATABASE EDITOR



Quoting Kimberlyrj (Thread starter):
Sometimes they will use all 4, but never only 1 and 4.

Is there an operational reason for this? Or just wear and tear?

1 and 4 are closest to the edges of the runway/taxiway, and thus, closest to debris that could be sucked into the engines. I'm not sure how heavily this susceptibility to foreign object damage weighs into the preference for using the inboards over the outboards, but I suspect it's a factor.

2H4



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User currently offlineAskr From Poland, joined Mar 2008, 45 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 12296 times:

Quoting Kimberlyrj (Thread starter):

I’ve noticed when working on the Boeing 747-400 aircraft our pilots often select engines 2 and 3 for reverse thrust leaving 1 and 4 at idle. Sometimes they will use all 4, but never only 1 and 4.

Is there an operational reason for this? Or just wear and tear?

If you mean during landing - it is to avoid creating a dust and debris cloud and having the engines ingest all of that.

That is one of the reasons why Airbus opted for no thrust reversers on tha a380. The 2 inner engines got them only because the regulators (mainly the FAA, not sure about Europe).

[Edited 2008-03-20 15:20:28]


ATC-PL Wanabe :) - 2nd application is in... 11 July...
User currently offlineKimberlyrj From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 385 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12260 times:

Thanks for your help guys

It makes sense what you were saying about the outer engines (1 and 4) not being selected for reverse thrust after landing.

Noticed that when landing at LHR the pilots normally use all four engines in reverse, but on the other hand at foreign airports such as Africa and South America we tend to use reverse on 2 and 3 only…

Once again, thanks for your help  Smile

Kimberly.


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9483 posts, RR: 42
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12245 times:



Quoting PJFlysFast (Reply 1):
Do you mean while they are are taxiing out? If so they may do that in order not to use the brakes because they can get hot real fast if you use them on taxi

Reverse during taxi on a 747? "I'm no expert but..." I'd be surprised.  Smile


User currently offlineKimberlyrj From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 385 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12217 times:

Hello

I have never seen a Boeing 747-400 use reverse thrust during taxi, however when exiting the runway at high speed the pilots sometimes seem to leave the engines in idle reverse, not sure why!?

Having worked for both Virgin Atlantic and now British Airways I have always noticed the GE engines sound very different during flight, but on landing in reverse the RR engines really growl, it’s a fantastic sound! Love it. Not sure about PW on the Boeing 744?

Kimberly


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12208 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD DATABASE EDITOR



Quoting http://www.airliners.net/discussions/profile.main?username=Kimberlyrj:
My husband is a pilot (Capt), he started out at Finnair (MD11) then Virgin (B744)

Not to dissuade you from participating here in the forums, but don't you have an extremely accurate source of B747 information at your immediate disposal?  Wink

2H4



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User currently offlineKimberlyrj From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 385 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12207 times:



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 8):
Not to dissuade you from participating here in the forums, but don't you have an extremely accurate source of B747 information at your immediate disposal?

My husband is away on a two week trip so he is not here to ask  Sad Also he tends to be somewhat snappy when I start asking techy questions - I am female after all lol

Kimberly.


User currently offlineJetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2636 posts, RR: 53
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12157 times:



Quoting Kimberlyrj (Reply 7):
RR engines really growl

The RR actually stands for Raucous Rumble, the sound of pure, unadulterated power  Smile.

Quoting Kimberlyrj (Reply 9):
Also he tends to be somewhat snappy when I start asking techy questions - I am female after all lol

That's not nice  Sad . Do you get snappy in return when he starts asking questions about passenger comfort and cabin service standards? Most pilots I speak to can ramble on incessantly about flying, they love it! As the joke goes;

"Why do pilots always talk about flying when they are with women, and about women when they are flying?

Regards, JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21102 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 12144 times:



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 3):
I'm not sure how heavily this susceptibility to foreign object damage weighs into the preference for using the inboards over the outboards, but I suspect it's a factor.

It's enough of a factor that Airbus decided not to fit reversers to the 380 on engines 1 and 4.

Quoting Kimberlyrj (Reply 5):
Noticed that when landing at LHR the pilots normally use all four engines in reverse, but on the other hand at foreign airports such as Africa and South America we tend to use reverse on 2 and 3 only…

At LHR, you most likely have someone coming in close behind you and ATC needs you off that runway yesterday. That's probably not the case at most other airports.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineKimberlyrj From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 385 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 13 hours ago) and read 12044 times:

Hello All

Quoting JetMech (Reply 10):
The RR actually stands for Raucous Rumble, the sound of pure, unadulterated power

Don't I know it, love sitting by left 2 (the exit just infront of the wings) hearing the RR's power up then the pilots 'flooring it', odd thing is the RR engines make quite a nice sound as they power back from TOGA to CLB (climb thrust), oh and on landing I love them they really rev up, the rumble - oh yes, sounds better then my Bmw M3 when I floor it  Smile

Quoting JetMech (Reply 10):
That's not nice . Do you get snappy in return when he starts asking questions about passenger comfort and cabin service standards? Most pilots I speak to can ramble on incessantly about flying, they love it! As the joke goes;

"Why do pilots always talk about flying when they are with women, and about women when they are flying?

I think I ask to many questions - but you are right when ever I am in the flight deck the pilots are always asking advice or questions about either me, or another female lol Bless em

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
At LHR, you most likely have someone coming in close behind you and ATC needs you off that runway yesterday. That's probably not the case at most other airports.

I bet that’s the reason, you can always see a long line of aircraft on finals.

I know that on early morning arrivals pilots are encouraged to not use reverse thrust to keep the noise down – but sometimes due to weather conditions they have no choice, safety always comes first (well, maybe second after chatting about females  Wink )

Kimberly.


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 12 hours ago) and read 12038 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD DATABASE EDITOR



Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
It's enough of a factor that Airbus decided not to fit reversers to the 380 on engines 1 and 4.

Is the FOD risk indeed the primary reason for this?

Quoting Kimberlyrj (Reply 12):
I think I ask to many questions - but you are right when ever I am in the flight deck the pilots are always asking advice or questions about either me, or another female lol Bless em

So it sounds like both parties possess information the other wants. My advice - hold out on the female/relationship advice until they earn it by answering some of your aviation questions.  Wink

2H4



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User currently offlineKimberlyrj From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 385 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 12 hours ago) and read 12021 times:

Hey

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 13):
So it sounds like both parties possess information the other wants. My advice - hold out on the female/relationship advice until they earn it by answering some of your aviation questions

Good point, I shall stop bribing them with tea/coffee and First (class) food and hold out on the information front lol – Will also do up my second button on my uniform  Wink

Kimberly


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 12 hours ago) and read 12018 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD DATABASE EDITOR

Quoting Kimberlyrj (Reply 14):
Will also do up my second button on my uniform

Woah woah woah....impose sanctions first, then escalate to DEFCON 1.

These things have to happen in stages, after all.  Wink

2H4

[Edited 2008-03-21 11:20:11]


Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineKimberlyrj From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 385 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 10 hours ago) and read 11978 times:

Hey

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 15):
then escalate to DEFCON 1

DEFCON 1 is undoing the third button when dealing with a male passenger who is complaining - or convinceing the commander he really does need to keep the seat belt sign on for say two hours  Wink

I think I need to fly with UA or NW to see what the PW engines sound like on take off, from what I have heard on the ground they don't sound so aggressive?

Kimberly


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 9 hours ago) and read 11967 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD DATABASE EDITOR



Quoting Kimberlyrj (Reply 16):
DEFCON 1 is undoing the third button when dealing with a male passenger who is complaining - or convinceing the commander he really does need to keep the seat belt sign on for say two hours

Do keep us abreast of your progress with the information exchange.  biggrin 

2H4



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineJetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2636 posts, RR: 53
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 9 hours ago) and read 11963 times:



Quoting Kimberlyrj (Reply 14):
Will also do up my second button on my uniform

Woah woah woah, steady on there. There's withholding information, and then there's taking things wwwaaaaaayyy too far  Sad !

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 15):
These things have to happen in stages, after all.

Precisely. The sudden withdrawal of "eye candy" has dangerous side effects for any male  faint  .

Quoting Kimberlyrj (Reply 12):
I think I ask to many questions

I think us pilots and engineers on Tech / Ops should concoct a list of grindingly technical questions for you to ask your husband, or any other pilot for that matter. It would be priceless to see the deflated ego look in their eyes when the flight attendant knows more about planes then they do Big grin !

Quoting Kimberlyrj (Reply 16):
DEFCON 1 is undoing the third button when dealing with a male passenger who is complaining

LOL Ha ha. I'm not sure if this would calm a male passenger down, or further "gee"" him up!

Regards. JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 9 hours ago) and read 11956 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD DATABASE EDITOR



Quoting JetMech (Reply 18):
I think us pilots and engineers on Tech / Ops should concoct a list of grindingly technical questions for you to ask your husband, or any other pilot for that matter. It would be priceless to see the deflated ego look in their eyes when the flight attendant knows more about planes then they do

I think JetMech is on to something here.

It's time for Tech-Oppers familiar with the B772 to volunteer their most tricky trivia questions. We need to arm Kimberly with some serious mental ammo so she can school her snappy husband.

So let's hear it, folks....what are the trickiest B772 questions from a systems and/or operational standpoint? What are some real kickers from your oral exams and checkrides?

2H4



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 7 hours ago) and read 11926 times:



Quoting Kimberlyrj (Reply 12):
I think I ask to many questions

No you don't.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 13):
My advice - hold out on the female/relationship advice until they earn it by answering some of your aviation questions.

Indeed. If your husband chooses to be annoying you, as a woman, are well armed to retaliate. From personal experience I would say that he doesn't know what he's messing with.  Wink



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21102 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 3 hours ago) and read 11877 times:



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 13):
Is the FOD risk indeed the primary reason for this?

I'd think so. It could also be for weight savings (and it does save weight), but I doubt that the regulatory authorities would let that excuse fly. FOD risk would be a better excuse to leave them off.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 19):
So let's hear it, folks....what are the trickiest B772 questions from a systems and/or operational standpoint? What are some real kickers from your oral exams and checkrides?

This website should prove useful: http://www.smartcockpit.com/plane/boeing/B777/  Smile

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3613 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11781 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 21):
but I doubt that the regulatory authorities would let that excuse fly. FOD risk would be a better excuse to leave them off.

Interesting... Do certifying authorities require the presence of TRs?

Quoting Kimberlyrj (Reply 16):
DEFCON 1 is undoing the third button when dealing with a male passenger who is complaining - or convinceing the commander he really does need to keep the seat belt sign on for say two hours

D@mn... I need to make a few suggestions to the ISD department at our airline.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineKimberlyrj From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 385 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 11721 times:

Hey all

Firstly thanks for all your help, it's great chatting to you guys - really enjoying it  Smile

Quoting JetMech (Reply 18):
Woah woah woah, steady on there. There's withholding information, and then there's taking things wwwaaaaaayyy too far

Your right, doing up the second button would only mean the pilots play up, or keep on asking if everything is ok - oh, when I say pilots I also include some female pilots who bat for the other side  Wink

Quoting JetMech (Reply 18):
Precisely. The sudden withdrawal of "eye candy" has dangerous side effects for any male

I don't want to send the commander into shock, your right. Maybe I will ask him to use loads of thrust on take off and lots of reverse on landing and I will go to DEFCON 1 (the thrid button) - If things start getting really stressy then there is the fourth button but that’s reserved for code one red situations only (well, normally unless its my husband who is the commander lol)

Quoting JetMech (Reply 18):
LOL Ha ha. I'm not sure if this would calm a male passenger down, or further "gee"" him up!

It normally takes their mind of what they are complaining about. If that fails you try the friend approach, take em off to a cabin crew jump seat, sit nice and close and pretend you really care, while coming across as sweet and innocent as possible – how else did you think I made it to Cabin Service Director and Compliance Manager by 28.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 19):
It's time for Tech-Oppers familiar with the B772 to volunteer their most tricky trivia questions. We need to arm Kimberly with some serious mental ammo so she can school her snappy husband

I think that’s a great idea, give me some questions, I will catch him out. He does not like it when I tell him stuff about the cabin that he does not know…

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 22):
D@mn... I need to make a few suggestions to the ISD department at our airline

Lol, you should off the record we have found that the BUA (button/s undone approach) really does help  Smile

Once again guys, thanks so much for your help, I think I'm going to enjoy posting here  Wink

Kimberly.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21102 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11687 times:



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 22):
Interesting... Do certifying authorities require the presence of TRs?

From what I've heard, the FAA was the driving force behind including TRs on the 380. Airbus had planned on leaving them off.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
25 Post contains links and images JetMech : A male in the throes of going cold turkey from "eye candy" with-drawl is a pathetic sight indeed! This is the precise time to ask technical questions
26 Francoflier : Well, I can see why they would twitch a bit... It's a big heavy bird.
27 Post contains images Starlionblue : Let's not start that again. At least not in this thread.
28 Kimberlyrj : I think him and I have an understanding on the flight deck, I don’t challenge him (to much) and he keeps his hand off my bottom (and certain other
29 Post contains images 2H4 : What are you doing.....drugging them before the date? Personally, I don't find incoherence all that attractive... Not all transport-category jet airc
30 Kimberlyrj : Hey I was once told by an Avro 100 pilot that due to the positioning of the landing gear on the fuselage they can apply a lot more breaking power then
31 Post contains images Jetlagged : Sounds like a bit of a pilot's line shoot. No reverse thrust is mainly to save weight, and as you say the Avro/BAe146 (and the F.28) have large tail
32 Post contains images Kimberlyrj : Hello Coming from a family of four bothers and me being the ‘baby’ I had no choice about enjoying football (soccer) and also learning how to deal
33 Post contains images JetMech : Nah, I just think big beautiful eyes with a touch of innocence are a very attractive feature on a lady. I think it was actually an Airbus initiative
34 Post contains images Kimberlyrj : I was once on a PalmAir FlightLine BAe 146-300 taking off from BOH (Bournemouth International Airport, Dorset, England - where I live) and just over
35 Starlionblue : It's not much of a backup system since it doesn't even have close to the same stopping power. You'd think a triple (or is it quadruple) redundant bra
36 Post contains images Kimberlyrj : Sorry I did not mean back up as a failure, I meant as a back up in normal operations. As pilots always say you can never have enough assistance when
37 Mir : Reverse or no, the aircraft must be able to stop on the runway (in whatever condition it's in) without the use of reverse thrust. So there's no real n
38 Tdscanuck : That's true, but it's not because the reversers get better, it's because certain conditions cause braking to get worse (ice, lots of water, etc.). If
39 Kimberlyrj : Hello What I meant is the slower the aircrafts speed, the less effective the reverse thrust from an aircraft. As for going off the end of the runway,
40 Starlionblue : "the other way around" would be that braking replaces reverse? Yes it can, as evidenced by the large number of aircraft without reversers.
41 Tdscanuck : Why would that be? At low speeds, like landing, the amount of thrust the engine can produce isn't a function of airspeed. Airbus actually tried to sa
42 Jetlagged : It certainly is the case that with a big fan engine with no core reverser there is considerable net reverse thrust at 150 knots, but at 0 knots very
43 Speedracer1407 : Strange that you would use the Little Rock accident, in which the plane veered off the runway with fatal consequences, as evidence that differential
44 2H4 : All it takes is one section of runway with poor to nil braking to see the value in having reverse thrust available. 2H4
45 Jetlagged : On an aircraft like an MD80 with tail mounted engines full reverse thrust will significantly reduce directional control from the fin and rudder. The
46 Post contains images Kimberlyrj : Talking about large aircraft here (topic of B744) and I don't know any that are not fitted with reverse thrust of some type (I mean all 'heavy' aircr
47 Bellerophon : I regret to say that much of what has been written about the use of reverse thrust on landing in general, and BA's B747 reverse thrust SOPs in particu
48 Lowrider : Did they actually articulate the thrust reversers that way, or did the engines just not spool up together? The the only time time I have seen the out
49 Hotelmode : Thank goodness you replied Bellerophon, I didnt recognise any of those techniques in our SOPs either! I've never seen anything above idle reverse used
50 Kimberlyrj : I think I’m going to take the advice of pilots over some person on the internet. When I spoke about reverse thrust and different uses of it, I was
51 Post contains images JetMech : I could listen to this lovely quartet all day ! Regards, JetMech
52 2H4 : For what it's worth..... I've been reading/participating here since 1999. In that time, I've only seen a very small handful of users produce posts wi
53 Post contains images David L : Yes, that's what I was trying to say.
54 Starlionblue : Given that the moderators felt that my language was harsh in the post of mine they deleted (fair enough), let me rephrase. Kimberlyrj, I feel that you
55 Post contains images David L : And you managed to take a few of us out with you , so I'll say again... What's the point in using differential/partial reverse when it's not in the S
56 Kimberlyrj : Hello all Like at work, I am going to deal with one 'user' at a time. In some cases a private message will be sent, as accouding I meant the use of di
57 David L : Somewhat condescending but thanks, I think. I have an Honours degree in Physics and have been an avid fan of aviation for more years than I care to r
58 Lowrider : Absolutely not. Anonymity allows me to say things here that I could not othewise risk. People have been fired from my company and many others because
59 PhilSquares : First of all, I will not PM you for anything. I suggest you re-read my post. Your entire posting history smells of fabrication and fantasy. That was
60 Point8six : This topic seems to be quietly disappearing, however I cannot let it go without the following observations:- 1). The use of reverse thrust on Nos. 2 +
61 Starlionblue : Welcome to a.nut, Point8six. Been lurking long?
62 Hotelmode : No I've never seen a BA747 land at LHR with more than idle reverse. The only time differential reverse is used is if control is lost on a slippery ru
63 Max Q : You use 'differential reverse if control is lost on a slippery runway' eh.. Interesting procedure you have there and total rubbish, first thing you wo
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