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747-200 With "glass Cockpit"  
User currently offlineLockstockNL777 From Netherlands, joined Feb 2008, 99 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 13166 times:

On this picture of a Martinair 747-200..

Big version: Width: 1024 Height: 695 File size: 491kb


..it is visible that the primary flight instruments are digital. I never knew this was an option for a 747-200, anyone has any more details on this? Thanks!

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 13147 times:

They were probably retrofitted. Have a look at the following link:

http://www.cmcelectronics.ca/En/Prod...Commav/commav_fds_overview_en.html



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 13135 times:

Check this out:



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Photo © Justin Lorenzo
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Photo © Freight-Dawg - Airside Photography




What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13096 times:

I think it is a retrofit. Electromechanical instruments generate a lot of heat and are expensive to overhaul. The digital replacements have a much longer service life.


Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9944 posts, RR: 26
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 13038 times:
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Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 2):
Check this out:

That first one looks like a normal 767 cockpit, if I'm not mistaken....



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 13031 times:



Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 4):

That first one looks like a normal 767 cockpit, if I'm not mistaken....

Right, that's the point. Before vs. after. The second picture is the IS&S flight deck upgrade offered on 757s and 767s.


User currently offlineTb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1588 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 13024 times:

NW changed all or most of their 742Fs over to EFIS engine instruments and Kalitta Air has also including some ADI and HSI upgrades much like the Martinair 742. They are more reliable than the original and look good too.


Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 13008 times:



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 5):
The second picture is the IS&S flight deck upgrade offered on 757s and 767s

FDX is going to that flight deck upgrade for their 757's they are aquiring.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 12961 times:



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 7):
FDX is going to that flight deck upgrade for their 757's they are aquiring.

Good choice by FX. Their investment in bringing their upcoming massive fleet of 757s by way of this upgrade will prove vastly beneficial. DL is even studying this upgrade for its 757/767 fleets.

Any idea if FX will retrofit their 757s FMS from PIP to Pegasus FMCs as well?


User currently offlineEx52tech From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 559 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 12955 times:



Quoting Tb727 (Reply 6):
NW changed all or most of their 742Fs over to EFIS engine instruments

It is called EIDS, and they put it on all of the DC10-30s, DC10 -40s, and the 742 fleet also. It has the capability to take snap shots, and has an exceedence page. Very good system, works very well.



"Saddest thing I ever witnessed....an airplane being scrapped"
User currently offlineAvioniker From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1109 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 12851 times:



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 8):
Any idea if FX will retrofit their 757s FMS from PIP to Pegasus FMCs as well?

I certainly hope not. I have enough trouble getting the point across with the simple stuff we have now.
I personally perfer the Universal or the Smiths. The formats are very similar and there's very few boxes and no exotic interfaces. RC 9000 is okay too but the layout and keystroke routine isn't intuitive. The advantage would be that FX is already using the MCDU for radio control on the Airbus fleet so it wouldn't be new to the crews.
Just one opinion mind you. . .
 Smile



One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2546 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 12835 times:



Quoting Ex52tech (Reply 9):
It is called EIDS, and they put it on all of the DC10-30s, DC10 -40s, and the 742 fleet also. It has the capability to take snap shots, and has an exceedence page. Very good system, works very well.

True, Penny & Giles designed that system, and Atlas Air also use it on their classics. The LCDs are quite small and not especially readable however. IS&S, who designed the 767/757 all glass update, have developed a better EIDS using a single much larger plasma display for Kalitta Air. The system includes a second display on the F/E panel which replaces the secondary engine instruments and a backup standby engine indicator.

Quoting Tb727 (Reply 6):
NW changed all or most of their 742Fs over to EFIS engine instruments and Kalitta Air has also including some ADI and HSI upgrades much like the Martinair 742. They are more reliable than the original and look good too.

It was KLM who lead the way with EFIS retrofits on 747-200s. They also added FMS, replacing the original INS, but retained the old engine displays. All these retrofits use LCDs or plasma displays. CRTs would have lead to an increase in the cooling requirements. The new systems log faults and exceedances so they are a big improvement for maintenance, over and above increased reliability.



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offlineEx52tech From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 559 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 12760 times:



Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 11):
The LCDs are quite small and not especially readable however.

They weren't any smaller or harder to read than the original tapes. They also have a lock on any exceedence that pilots don't like to have documented.



"Saddest thing I ever witnessed....an airplane being scrapped"
User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2546 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 12308 times:



Quoting Ex52tech (Reply 12):
They weren't any smaller or harder to read than the original tapes. They also have a lock on any exceedence that pilots don't like to have documented.

I was thinking round dials v EIDS. The EIDS displays are about two inches shorter than the mechanical tapes, though more readable (good use of colour). The old tapes do record exceedances, but not as comprehensively (or tamper free) as the EIDS. However compared to round dial presentation the EIDS is not as readable and I know crews who thought the conversion of round dials to EIDS was a backward step (then again some crews liked it). Only about half of the EIDS panel area is devoted to displaying information. The IS&S EIDS system I mentioned earlier has a separate control panel and a large display, all of which is devoted to displaying data.


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Photo © Martin Boschhuizen - AirTeamImages
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Photo © Youri Thonon - Contrails Aviation Photography



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Photo © Irfan Caliskan - AirTeamImages
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Photo © Petr Volek




The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6372 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 12299 times:

Wonder if you could also install some of the automation equipment from the 747-400 and thus eliminate the flight engineer crew position while you were at it...  scratchchin 


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineEx52tech From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 559 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12281 times:



Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 13):
The old tapes do record exceedances, but not as comprehensively (or tamper free) as the EIDS. However compared to round dial presentation the EIDS is not as readable and I know crews who thought the conversion of round dials to EIDS was a backward step (then again some crews liked it)

"Tamper free" would be the key words here.

I came from an airline which used the round dials, to an airline that used the tapes. I absolutely hated the tapes, we had to have one guy in the cockpit trying to read and write down the tape readings while we were conducting high power engine runs. The nice feature about the EIDS was taking a "snap shot" while at power, and then recalling those readings when returning to idle.

Personally going from round dials to the EIDS would have even been a step backwards.



"Saddest thing I ever witnessed....an airplane being scrapped"
User currently offlineBruin787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 117 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12167 times:

i got a Kalitta 747-100 with somewhat similar upgrades last year.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f269/janus020/f5c51379.jpg



http://taxiwayalpha.blogspot.com
User currently offlineVc10 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1408 posts, RR: 16
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 12096 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 14):
Wonder if you could also install some of the automation equipment from the 747-400 and thus eliminate the flight engineer crew position while you were at it...

Why, so the aircraft can have 3 pilots instead of 2 pilots and a F/E

littlevc10 Big grin


User currently offlineLockstockNL777 From Netherlands, joined Feb 2008, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11984 times:



Quoting Bruin787 (Reply 16):
i got a Kalitta 747-100 with somewhat similar upgrades last year.

what? you got one for christmas or something?!!!  Wink


User currently offlinePilotboi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2366 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 23 hours ago) and read 11901 times:



Quoting Bruin787 (Reply 16):
i got a Kalitta 747-100 with somewhat similar upgrades last year.

I don't see the upgrades in that pic. I've actually yet to see any of Kalitta's upgrade pics, other then what my dad has shown me from work.


User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2546 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 22 hours ago) and read 11896 times:



Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 19):
I don't see the upgrades in that pic. I've actually yet to see any of Kalitta's upgrade pics, other then what my dad has shown me from work.

The photo shows it has EFIS and FMS, but not EIDS yet. Since Kalitta Air has started buying 744 freighters the upgrade of the classics might slow down.



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
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