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Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-300  
User currently offlinePeh From Australia, joined Nov 2006, 340 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10243 times:

A Qantas 747-300 was diverted to Adelaide this afternoon after a window in the business class section "popped". The airline says the diversion was just a precaution because the windows were 4 panes thick.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/...dair/2008/03/29/1206207484533.html

I remember seeing this photo and thinking it was serious but later learnt that it happens more often than I thought and that a diversion is not always required.



Was this diversion an over-reaction by the pilots?

[Edited 2008-03-29 01:41:53]

[Edited 2008-03-29 01:42:22]


Flown: ATR72, DASH 8, 737, 747, 767, 777, A300, A320, A321, A330, A340, MD80
21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4841 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10204 times:



Quoting Peh (Thread starter):
A Qantas 747-200

Qantas doesn't have any 747-200!
QF does however have 4x 747-300 which operates MEL-PER-SYD-PER-MEL



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineLHRlocal From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2008, 279 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10200 times:

This must be a -300 or -400, Qantas dont have 200s anymore.

User currently offlinePeh From Australia, joined Nov 2006, 340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10168 times:

You're right. My mistake. I just managed to squeeze in the correction before the time limit ran out. Thanks.


Flown: ATR72, DASH 8, 737, 747, 767, 777, A300, A320, A321, A330, A340, MD80
User currently offlineTruemanQLD From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 1579 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10130 times:

Another incident for a QF 743. Time to scrap them QANTAS! Probably just done so it seems that they take safety very seriously

User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4987 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10100 times:



Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 4):
Another incident for a QF 743. Time to scrap them QANTAS! Probably just done so it seems that they take safety very seriously

Not yet... The B743's will remain in the fleet until 2009...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineJetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2699 posts, RR: 53
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10086 times:



Quoting Peh (Thread starter):
The airline says the diversion was just a precaution because the windows were 4 panes thick.

747 passenger windows are made of three layers. They are the outer pane, mid pane and scratch pane. The outer pane is the primary pane, and it is designed to take the pressurisation loads during normal operations. The mid pane can also withstand the pressurisation loads if the outer pane fails, but it is meant to be a back up only. The scratch pane is the one you can touch when you put you hand up to the window in the cabin. It is there to protect the two structural panes from damage. It cannot take the pressurisation loads.

Regards, JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlineTonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1445 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10065 times:

I was recently working a 767 flight to the states where the window panel to the right of the First Officer started to develop a crack about 45 minutes out from arrival. I will never forget the look on the poor FO's face....he looked terrified even though the captain was giggling away to herself! LOL!

But this was actually the third experience of such I have experienced in two years so it does actually occur more than you would realise!



My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5302 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 9997 times:



Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 4):
Another incident for a QF 743. Time to scrap them QANTAS! Probably just done so it seems that they take safety very seriously

It is becoming a very frequent occurance with these old birds and ouyt of a fleet of 200 aircraft it is always these 4 that seem to have the major issues.... swiss cheese...swiss cheese... or have I been watching to much Air Crasdh investigation


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31702 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9886 times:



Quoting Peh (Thread starter):
The airline says the diversion was just a precaution because the windows were 4 panes thick.

There should be Two Main panes [outer & mid] & the inner decorative one. Not four.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineSlimShady From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 200 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9510 times:



Quoting JetMech (Reply 6):
747 passenger windows are made of three layers. They are the outer pane, mid pane and scratch pane. The outer pane is the primary pane, and it is designed to take the pressurisation loads during normal operations. The mid pane can also withstand the pressurisation loads if the outer pane fails, but it is meant to be a back up only. The scratch pane is the one you can touch when you put you hand up to the window in the cabin. It is there to protect the two structural panes from damage. It cannot take the pressurisation loads

Yep.

The outer and mid panes are both made of stretched acyrlic. If you put a cabin window in the oven @350 degrees, it will shrink to about 1/2 its size.

The outer and mid pane, are found in chapter 56 (windows). If you go looking for the inner pane, it is located in chapter 25, (interiors) the scratch pane (the one you can touch, is technincally part of the interior.


User currently offlineScarebus03 From Ireland, joined Apr 2005, 305 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9398 times:



Quoting Tonystan (Reply 7):
But this was actually the third experience of such I have experienced in two years so it does actually occur more than you would realise!

With cockpit windows it does happen quiet frequently but they are designed to contain the failures without compromising the structural integrity of the window.

It is however not common for pax windows to go pop. I have changed thousands of pax windows on the 747 series and this stinks of bad maintenance practice (which appears to be an ongoing saga for QF at the moment).

They made the right decision to divert.

Best Regards



No faults found......................
User currently offlineLaxboeingman From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 579 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7545 times:

I do not think that that was an over reaction. I think that the windows were damaged just enough. I also thought, that they retired the 300.

laxboeingman



The real American classics: LAX and Boeing.
User currently offlineDitzyboy From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 722 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6844 times:



Quoting Laxboeingman (Reply 12):
I also thought, that they retired the 300.

Qantas operates four (4) 743s, as detailed on its website. Check out the pics and TRs on this very website and the multitude of anecdotal evidence, as seen above and in many other posts on this site.


User currently offlineRyan h From Australia, joined Aug 2001, 1571 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6743 times:

747-338 VH-EBW was the aircraft involved in the incident. A problem like that could lead to worse things like the window giving way altogether, so the diversion was required.

747-338 VH-EBY came about three hours later to pick the pax up.

An interesting day for us Adelaide spotters.



South Australian Spotter
User currently offlineYWG747 From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 251 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6484 times:



Quoting Peh (Thread starter):
Was this diversion an over-reaction by the pilots?

When you are dealing with passenger and crew safety.... nothing is an over reaction...
if he doesn't divert... karma says the window blows out....


User currently offlineGearup From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 578 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6453 times:



Quoting SlimShady (Reply 10):
The outer and mid pane, are found in chapter 56 (windows). If you go looking for the inner pane, it is located in chapter 25, (interiors) the scratch pane (the one you can touch, is technincally part of the interior.

Is the inner pane used on combi's in cargo mode?



I have no memory of this place.
User currently offlineXtoler From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 953 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6363 times:

Better safe than sorry, it's the PIC's call to divert. Dealing with an older aircraft, even if the mx is great, sometimes you don't really want to take the chance of flying it all the way on a long haul if you have a closer divert. I just wonder how much louder that section of the cabin got.

As airtight as aircraft are, you will have leaks. A hole in the fuselage or in a door seal will not cause catasrophic failure as the movies would show. I'll tell you one thing though, a bad door seal on a J41 in the winter time between CHW and PIT really sucks. A bad door seal on an EMB145 sucks even more no matter where you go. The aircaft still flies, until we can get some MX done on it. That's just a write up sometimes and we can slap an MRI sticker on it. The pax only have to deal with it for one leg. If we don't change aircraft we're stuck with it for up to 6 legs. Then you have to wonder why we talk so lound at the hotel bar at the end of the day.



EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
User currently offlineAirnewzealand From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 2542 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5863 times:

Better safe than sorry...Exactly, and we as crew at Qantas take safety very very seriously!
A reason for the diversion would also be due to the Great Australian Bite.
Someone correct me if im wrong, but their is no diversion airport after Adelaide, so another three hours or so until PER is reached and you are out over water.

All i can say is lets get rid of them. I could write a book on the problems i have encountered on them!!! Grrrr...

Quoting EK413 (Reply 5):
Not yet... The B743's will remain in the fleet until 2009...

Hey EK413,
Interesting you heard that. Last i heard 2 will be gone by the end of this year (They are staying this long so they can operate FCO flights), leaving 2 to operate SYD-PER sectors. Pilots have been offered other positions i hear.

Cheers


User currently offlineJetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2699 posts, RR: 53
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4867 times:



Quoting Peh (Thread starter):

The Sun Herald had a picture today that was supposedly of the window. It definitely looked like the outer pane had blown out.

Quoting SlimShady (Reply 10):
The outer and mid pane, are found in chapter 56 (windows). If you go looking for the inner pane, it is located in chapter 25, (interiors) the scratch pane (the one you can touch, is technincally part of the interior.

I see. That makes sense, as the outer and mid pane are definitely much more important than the scratch pane, hence their inclusion in chapter 56.

Quoting Scarebus03 (Reply 11):
I have changed thousands of pax windows on the 747 series and this stinks of bad maintenance practice (which appears to be an ongoing saga for QF at the moment).

Perhaps there was a pre-exisiting defect in the pane? I guess that the pane could have been heavily scratched or exposed to chemicals prior to fitment, but I'm not sure a LAME would sign off a pane with visible mechanical damage. We used to carefully clean the outer and mid pane to remove any hand prints from them, so I would say that an outer pane with evident pre-exisiting mechanical damage would have been rejected.

Quoting Gearup (Reply 16):
Is the inner pane used on combi's in cargo mode?

I'd say so, as a combi is usually purchased with the carriage of passengers in mind. On 747 BCF's, I think they may actually replace the windows with aluminium blanks to reduce the maintenance burden that comes with them.

Regards, JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17118 posts, RR: 66
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4823 times:



Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 4):
Another incident for a QF 743. Time to scrap them QANTAS! Probably just done so it seems that they take safety very seriously

Why scrap them? Plenty of older aircraft are safely flying every day. It's not age that's the problem if there is a problem. Age just makes maintenance more expensive, not operations more risky.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31702 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4650 times:



Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 4):
Another incident for a QF 743. Time to scrap them QANTAS! Probably just done so it seems that they take safety very seriously

Age has nothing to do with safety IF Mx is carried out as per schedule.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
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