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"Line Up" Vs "To Position" In Canada  
User currently offlineRomeoMike From Canada, joined Nov 2005, 36 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3054 times:

On April 10th, tower controllers in Canada will be changing standard phraseology from "Taxi to position runway XX" to "Line up runway XX" in order to conform to the ICAO standard. I just have a couple of questions regarding this for my pilot friends:

a) For American pilots, particularly those who fly trans-border routes frequently -- are you aware this change is coming? if so, how is this information distributed? Knowing how these bureaucracies work, it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that no one knows about it  Smile

b) Is this the standard throughout Europe and the rest of the world? I understand it's the way ICAO wants it, but I'm wondering if it's implemented everywhere, and if not, is "taxi to position" the only other commonly used phrase?

c) For pilots who hear both on a regular basis, are there any particular problems with one or the other that you notice? (aside from the obvious education issues that come with a change like this)

My initial reaction is that it seems like a change for the better, but that's based solely on what I've read, not on any experience (my own or others'). Appreciate your comments!  Smile

7 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBoeingOnFinal From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 476 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3038 times:

Quoting RomeoMike (Thread starter):
For American pilots, particularly those who fly trans-border routes frequently -- are you aware this change is coming?

Not trying to come off as an American, but I can answer this anyway. Any pilot flying to a foreign country has to check up on national law. This is done by checking the Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP), specifically the GEN section for a list of differences from the ICAO standards (for ICAO contracting states, which most countries are).
Pilots also check up on NOTAMs, which are Notice to Airmen. These notes provide info on aeronautical facility, service, procedure or hazard that need to be notified quickly to pilots.
We also check something called Aeronautical Information Circular (AIC), which contain information on the long-term forecast of any major change in legislation, regulations, procedures or facilities. Here you will find info on the topic in question. Due to being a known change, it is easily forecasted and can be notified quite some time in advance.

Link to the AIC published on this topic

We do use that phraseology in Norway as well. I have not flown anywhere else in Europe so I cannot speak for the rest, but it is individually decided by each Civil Aviation Authority if they want to practice the ICAO SAPRS (Standard and recommended practices) or not.

I did not see that you where an ATC untill now, so my explanation might be a bit basic.  Smile
I thought the ATC's had to be pretty updated on this stuff too? Might be easier with only one region, zone or area to relate to.

[Edited 2008-03-31 22:38:56]


norwegianpilot.blogspot.com
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9210 posts, RR: 76
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3014 times:



Quoting RomeoMike (Thread starter):
Is this the standard throughout Europe and the rest of the world?

Yes

Quoting RomeoMike (Thread starter):
is "taxi to position" the only other commonly used phrase?

Taxi into position and hold is common

Quoting RomeoMike (Thread starter):
c) For pilots who hear both on a regular basis, are there any particular problems with one or the other that you notice? (aside from the obvious education issues that come with a change like this)

Very difficult for non native english speakers to say "call sign taxi into position and hold runway 33", "line up runway 33" is easier, both for them to pronounce, and for people to understand.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineTb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1629 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2960 times:

Quoting RomeoMike (Thread starter):
a)

The FAA sent out an email regarding the change as well as my Director of Ops to all the pilots in the company. Lucky me, I got it twice surprisingly!

Quoting RomeoMike (Thread starter):
b)

Pose and hold and line up and wait are the only two I can think of ever hearing and I've heard it mixed throughout non-US airports strangely enough.


Canada just seems to be changing to be like everyone else as usual. Be yourself Canada! Don't let ICAO push you around!


Personally, I don't like "line up and wait" I think it sounds kind of dumb, but that's just me.

[Edited 2008-04-01 06:50:02]


Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2794 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2921 times:



Quoting RomeoMike (Thread starter):
a) For American pilots, particularly those who fly trans-border routes frequently -- are you aware this change is coming? if so, how is this information distributed?

Distributed to all pilots at my company through a bulletin via company email.

Quoting RomeoMike (Thread starter):
c) For pilots who hear both on a regular basis, are there any particular problems with one or the other that you notice?

I actually prefer the ICAO way. I don't like that "position and hold" and "hold short" both have the same word. It's more likely to cause confusion, leading to a runway incursion.



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlineRomeoMike From Canada, joined Nov 2005, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2921 times:

BoeingOnFinal, we are updated on this stuff... but it's all through internal ops bulletins. I work for NavCanada, so of course the documents you refer to are available as well, but changes are brought to our attention with specific memos telling us about them -- these memos must be signed off on before you sit down to work each day. That's why I was curious in how pilots get the info and whether they had a similar system (beyond NOTAMs). Your answer was very helpful, thanks  

We're specifically told not to use the phrase "and hold" I guess due to that possible confusion. Someone also told me that it had on occasion been confused for "Taxi to position and roll" which of course has never been said, but apparently a pilot figured it meant he or she was cleared to go  Smile I'm not sure I believe that story -- you know how the rumours fly in this industry  Smile

Thanks for the input guys.

[Edited 2008-04-01 08:19:24]

User currently offlineBoeingOnFinal From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 476 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2916 times:



Quoting RomeoMike (Reply 5):
BoeingOnFinal, we are updated on this stuff... but it's all through internal ops bulletins. I work for NavCanada, so of course the documents you refer to are available as well, but changes are brought to our attention with specific memos telling us about them -- these memos must be signed off on before you sit down to work each day.

I did not know that, thank you for that info.



norwegianpilot.blogspot.com
User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3151 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2901 times:

We had a company memo on our website that was listed as "must read". If we haven't read those messages we don't get to go to work and get to do a lot of carpet dancing.


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