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Cross-country Advice  
User currently offline-20XX pilot From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (13 years 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1515 times:

I was wondering what advice a professional pilot can give to a student pilot when it comes to dead reackoning and pilotage during cross-country flights?

12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineGocaps16 From Japan, joined Jan 2000, 4339 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (13 years 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1487 times:

Don't fly VFR on top.

Kevin/DCA


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4194 posts, RR: 37
Reply 2, posted (13 years 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1484 times:

Always leave yourself an out...be prepared. Always have an alternate airport in mind just in case something happens.
Make sure you know exactly where you are by cross checking your assumed position with VOR radials and NDB radials if equipped. Follow along on your map and make sure what you see outside corresponds with what you think you should be seeing.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (13 years 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1468 times:

It's illegal for student pilots to fly VFR on top...as it is for any non-instrument rated pilot.

Ask your flight instructor, assume we are all evil imposters who are bent on getting you killed with bad information.  Big thumbs up



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User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (13 years 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1467 times:

Ralgha I think gocaps16 means is when you find a hole in the clouds and get on top that way, not IFR VFR on top.
Iain


User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (13 years 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1456 times:

Then it's not technically VFR On Top Smile

Anyway, it's still illegal for student pilots to fly without visual reference to the ground.  Big thumbs up



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User currently offlineGocaps16 From Japan, joined Jan 2000, 4339 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (13 years 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1449 times:

Yea, what I meant is what Iain said. On my xcountry trip with my CFI, the clouds were scattered at 3,000ft and I've could've gotten a chance to fly in a hole of no clouds above the couds and maintain VFR "on top", but since we were using dead reckoning and pilotage, it's not possible since you cannot see the ground.

But the min. distance above a cloud is 1,000ft.

Kevin/DCA


User currently offlineGocaps16 From Japan, joined Jan 2000, 4339 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (13 years 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1447 times:

-20XXpilot, yea, on my stage checkride for my solo cross country, the examiner made me know where my exact position was, so I cross-checked using two VOR radials. (Gordonsville amd Casanova VOR) A plotter is a very handy tool for a xcountry trip. Also use all your instruments like your ADF, VORs/DME (if installed) and keep track of your time, also. You want to correct your heading indicator every 10-15 minutes (in straight and level flight) with the mag. compass so your heading will be accurate. What am I missing? Lean your mixture above 3,000ft MSL to conserve fuel, and don't be afraid to use your radioes. Call up approach control and request flight following, if it's a busy sector, mention them your a student pilot and they'll probably fit you in their radar. Happy Flying!

Kevin/DCA


User currently offlineGocaps16 From Japan, joined Jan 2000, 4339 posts, RR: 21
Reply 8, posted (13 years 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1446 times:

Yea, What Ralgha said and he has a CPL, ask your CFI. He thinks VFR on top is illegal for student pilots so it could be. I'm not sure so I'll ask my CFI if it is. Big grin Any CFI should know this. cough::XFSUgimp::cough Big grin

Kevin/DCA


User currently offlineGocaps16 From Japan, joined Jan 2000, 4339 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (13 years 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1442 times:

I got an email from a pilot that I know, this is what he said.

Well, for starters, VFR on top is an IFR thing, so you can't do that if
you're not on an IFR flight plan. So yeah, it's illegal for student
pilots too.

What you're describing is called "VFR over the top" and is not necessarily
illegal for student pilots. The clause is that a student pilot must
maintain visual contact with the ground. So, IMHO, you can fly over a
few/scattered layered and be legal (and safe) but flying over a
broken/overcast layer is not. Once you are rated, you may fly over the
top of a broken/overcast layer to your heart's content.

The answer is: "You must maintain visual contact with the ground." You
may be over the top and have said contact, or you may be over the top and
not have said contact.

Over-the-top when you're VFR only poses some additional risks. I won't
fly over the top unless I'm absolutely sure I can find a hole to get down.
If AWOS/ASOS/ATIS along your route of flight is reporting overcast/broken
and you can't see any holes to get down, it's a good idea to turn around
and descend in the clear area where you climbed.


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4194 posts, RR: 37
Reply 10, posted (13 years 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1442 times:

As far as the regs say, there is no VFR on top restrictions for student pilots, but you wouldnt want to get a student pilot on their cross-country on top of the clouds to where they couldnt see the ground. This is completely contrary to using pilotage and dead reckoning where youre navigation is based off of ground referecne points and specific time hacks.

VFR-on-Top is an IFR term used for climbing up through the clounds and staying on an instrument flight plan, but flying "on top" of the clouds using VFR rules and altitudes along with IFR rules.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4194 posts, RR: 37
Reply 11, posted (13 years 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1438 times:

in the first paragraph, i meant to say VFR over the top... there is a difference here, and thats what the confusion has stemmed from.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (13 years 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1434 times:

I'm a CFI as well Gocaps16  Big thumbs up, but don't take my word for it, just ask your CFI.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


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