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Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?  
User currently offlineZuluAviator994 From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 510 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4130 times:

Hey guys,
Just wondering, I did a search and couldn't find anything to exact on this subject, so I'm asking you.
I don't know if this is the correct forum, but I would believe so.
I'm doing this for a school project, so your information needs to be sited  devil 
Thanks, and please no biasness. I really need factual information with sites and sources
Rrgds
Barnes


If Speed is life, Altitude is life insurance. No one has ever collided with the sky.
55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4118 times:

There is a lot of talk about how high altitude emissions might be affecting the atmosphere. Also there was the fact that during the days after 9/11 temperatures lowered a bit.


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineZuluAviator994 From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 510 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4112 times:

Ok, thanks.
But does anybody know what Global Warming is doing TO Aviation, not vise versa. Lol, very little I'm sure, but it has to be effecting the ticketing costs and such, any ideas?
Rgrds



If Speed is life, Altitude is life insurance. No one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineGeorgiaAME From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 926 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4085 times:

Global warming greatly increases the price of jet fuel. Sweet crude is currently running at $126 per barrel as a direct result of the rise in planetary temperature. You can almost graph out the linear relationship between the two. Airlines are forced to merge and reduce capacity, again, a direct result of global warming. As your teachers/professors will tell you, temperatures are going up, read the newspapers, Delta now needs to merge with Northwest, USAir was bought out by a smaller company based in Arizona, not exactly the coolest state in the US, and now is in talks with United, a major, world wide carrier. Global warming reduces the efficiency of designing and building new aircraft types. It is no accident that the A380 is not in full production, nor that the 787 is a minimum of 15 months, or more, delayed. Global warming is most pronounced in Europe, as witnessed by the rapid melting of Swiss glaciers. Where is the A380 manufactured? Europe. Most Boeing aircraft used to be designed, manufactured, assembled in the cool Northwest state of Washington, before we were even aware of the Global Warming phenomenon. But not the new 787- sub systems and partial assembly is occurring world wide, with a major series of components being built in Europe. Global warming is obviously the most direct cause of this problem. Global warming will directly result in the need for greater military cargo airlift flights, if only for mercy supply missions. The globe gets hotter, hurricanes become more frequent and stronger (just look at the past 2 Atlantic seasons if you don't believe me!), more 3rd world countries are hit by the brunt of the storms, more relief flights, and more near stratospheric emissions dumping, more still more warming. You only have to look at the misery this past week in Myanmar if you don't believe me. Scientists and other experts like Nobel Winner Al Gore will tell you this is a direct result of Global Warming.

Morgan, before you were born, our country had a great President who loved to quote Russian proverbs to the dismay of his liberal friends, (who were themselves very strong supporters of the Soviet way of governing). My favorite was "Trust, but Verify". If they wish to retain their jobs, your teachers are forced by their bosses to spout politically correct platitudes, which have no bearing in fact. Global warming is the current big lie. It does not exist, but you run the risk of getting an F in your class if you refuse to go along with the myth. The logic I have given you can be spouted back, and will probably earn you a B. Quote Mr Gore in his totally discredited work of fiction "An Uncomfortable Truth" and you can earn an A. Trust me, but verify the facts for yourself. Global warming is a myth, and is being forced down the throats of a small, vocal, and very gullible segment of our society. The truth is, the reality is, that It has no effect on aviation, other than making it a little harder for an aircraft to lift off on a hot, dry airfield. And if the teacher does give you some flack should you quote this part of my explanation, your defense should be to ask him or her precisely WHAT temperature would you want the world to be? It stops them dead in their tracks each and every time, for obvious reasons. Best of luck to you. (Hint for real info: go to NASA web sites, and review shrinking icecaps on Mars, and increased storm frequency on Neptune during this past decade of Global Warming. Those facts should get you an F in no time!)



"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
User currently offlineAvioniker From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1109 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4078 times:

. . . What he said; WOW!
You want to see the effects? Just look out the window of your car driving by the unplanted fields today. All this warming has made it impossible to get an on-time flight out of the E. IA Airport unless it's on the overnight parked plane.
Gotta go with what Dr H. has to say. No effect other than to line someone else's pockets.
 

[Edited 2008-05-10 09:55:47]


One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9483 posts, RR: 42
Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4075 times:

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 3):

  

A+ for that!   

Edit: Oops, I thought this was in Civil Aviation so, on a more seious note, you might want to look at proposed taxes designed to penalise aviation's alleged contribution to global warming.

[Edited 2008-05-10 10:37:51]

User currently offlineZuluAviator994 From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 510 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4057 times:

Thanks everybody, lol, you scared me a bit when u said my name dr. H, but oh well. And yeah, I know it's all a big myth, but it seems to be a favourite (I'm Aussie), but yeah, thanks for all the info, I'll probly quote you, thanks


If Speed is life, Altitude is life insurance. No one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4029 times:



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):


There is a lot of talk about how high altitude emissions might be affecting the atmosphere. Also there was the fact that during the days after 9/11 temperatures lowered a bit.

As a meteorologist/climo person, that research about the post-9/11 days was so flawed words cannot even describe.


User currently offlineEx52tech From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 559 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4017 times:



Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 3):
Global warming is the current big lie. It does not exist,

AMEN brother !!!!!!!

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 3):
Quote Mr Gore in his totally discredited work of fiction "An Uncomfortable Truth"

I think of it more as "A Convenient Lie". The only effect that so called "Global Warming" is having on the airline industry is it's destruction.

My friends university educated son told me just the other day, that gas needs to be $10 a gallon, just to offset it's effect on the environment. Totally and completely brain washed,............. I had to leave the room.



"Saddest thing I ever witnessed....an airplane being scrapped"
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4010 times:



Quoting Ex52tech (Reply 8):
Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 3):
Global warming is the current big lie. It does not exist,

AMEN brother !!!!!!!

Apparently, you guys are completely unable to read a thermometer, or consult with anyone who does.

Global warming isn't in doubt...the global mean temperature is increasing, and has been for some time. Whether that's the fault of man, natural cycles, or some other cause is completely up in the air, but denying that the globe is actually warming has about the same scientific footing as denying that the tide is coming in while your shoes are getting wet.

Tom.


User currently offlineThegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4004 times:



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 7):
As a meteorologist/climo person, that research about the post-9/11 days was so flawed words cannot even describe.

Interesting how you didn't comment either way. I've seen a lot of meteorologists who think that the globe is warming, and the probability is that it is caused by man. The causation link is established on the grounds that the warming is happening as the models have predicted. Could it be natural variability? Yes, but that's <5% chance.


User currently offlineEx52tech From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 559 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4005 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 9):
Apparently, you guys are completely unable to read a thermometer, or consult with anyone who does.

My understanding is that the mean temperature has not gone up since 1998, that is why the people who would profit from global warming are screaming the loudest before we all figure out that we are being scammed. If there is no crisis then there is no need to funnel money into the study of it. I don't deny that the earth goes through cycles, but I don't believe that we have the effect on it that some would have you believe we do. Consensus is not science, in order to be considered science it has to be 100% proven fact, and some out there are trying to sell consensus as scientific fact.

Speaking of reading thermometers, have we been reading them long enough to determine what the temperature variances have been over a longer period of time than we have been recording said temperatures............once again.........consensus trying to be sold as scientific fact.



"Saddest thing I ever witnessed....an airplane being scrapped"
User currently offlineThegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4001 times:



Quoting Ex52tech (Reply 11):
in order to be considered science it has to be 100% proven fact

Actually no. There isn't really any such thing as 100% proof, disproof is much easier. Newtonian mechanics was (and still is) pretty good, but it's not completely right with relativity and quantum theory.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3990 times:



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 7):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):


There is a lot of talk about how high altitude emissions might be affecting the atmosphere. Also there was the fact that during the days after 9/11 temperatures lowered a bit.

As a meteorologist/climo person, that research about the post-9/11 days was so flawed words cannot even describe.

I don't have to be a meteorologist to see that!  Smile That's why I said "a lot of talk". The whole thing was quite unscientific.

Quoting Thegeek (Reply 12):
Quoting Ex52tech (Reply 11):
in order to be considered science it has to be 100% proven fact

Actually no. There isn't really any such thing as 100% proof, disproof is much easier. Newtonian mechanics was (and still is) pretty good, but it's not completely right with relativity and quantum theory.

Indeed. The results need to be repeatable, which is not quite the same as 100% correct.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9483 posts, RR: 42
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3988 times:

Um, people... speaking as someone who occasionally gets involved in quite heated debates about the validity of MMGW in the Non-aviation forum, can I suggest we keep this one on topic and offer suggestions on how the whole thing might affect aviation, whether it's valid or not?

Just speaking from bitter experience.  fight 

 biggrin 

Punitive taxation is the only thing I can think of that will be a factor, whether the idea is valid or not. I'm sure others can offer more suggestions.


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3972 times:

Pretty much the same effect the Bermuda Triangle has on flight operations in the Western Atlantic - and for exactly the same reason.

Now the global warming snakeoil that has allowed Al Gore to increase his personal net worth by something like a hundred million dollars in the past five or six years while using many times the fossil fuel the rest of us use WILL affect air transport. (Not actual aviation but the business of air transport, primarily in the form of regulatory kneejerks by uninformed politicians.

But that's just my opinion. Wouldn't want to get on a rant.

I defy anyone to prove one actual effect of climate change on flight operations. Note that I said "climate change" and not rule changes, price changes or widescale bankruptcies all of which are man-caused for certain. More to the point, when I say "climate" I do not mean political climate.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineThegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3938 times:



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 15):
I defy anyone to prove one actual effect of climate change on flight operations.

Hotter temps causing lower thrust in certain hot and high locations.


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5343 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3934 times:



Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 3):
If they wish to retain their jobs, your teachers are forced by their bosses to spout politically correct platitudes, which have no bearing in fact.

Ah, just like 'intelligent design' also, ... now, I get it  Wink


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineZuluAviator994 From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 510 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3913 times:

Hmm...Interesting stuff guys, thanks...Wonder what my science teacher will say
lol



If Speed is life, Altitude is life insurance. No one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 19, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3914 times:



Quoting Thegeek (Reply 16):
Hotter temps causing lower thrust in certain hot and high locations.

No. That would be a hypothetical effect IF it could be demonstrated that temperatures actually were consistently hotter in [more than a few] "certain" hot and high locations.

We are all well aware that local hot weather at high elevation airports could result in reduced lift capacity out of those aiports. There is not ONE SHRED of evidence that this ACTUALLY IS affecting airline operations.

Believe me, if that was happening I am one of the people who would be dealing with the real-world effects. I am not. No one at my airline is.

Next.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3901 times:



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 19):

We are all well aware that local hot weather at high elevation airports could result in reduced lift capacity out of those aiports. There is not ONE SHRED of evidence that this ACTUALLY IS affecting airline operations.

Considering the average increase of this so-called global warming has been to the degree of maybe 1°F per couple decades... these differences are negligible to the aircraft performance. A pilot isn't really going to notice a difference of just a couple degrees F., it's only going to be a couple hundred ft difference in density altitudes. The same differences that occur every hour of every day.


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 21, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3887 times:



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 20):
these differences are negligible to the aircraft performance

Okay, so the o/p asked for "The Effect On Aviation" so if the differences were negligible I guess you could say

There is no effect


Which is pretty much what I said.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 20):
A pilot isn't really going to notice

And I am not answering as a pilot but as a person very much involved with flight operations and training. I'd know if there was some actual trend.

Now fuel price...



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9483 posts, RR: 42
Reply 22, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3861 times:



Quoting ZuluAviator994 (Reply 18):
Wonder what my science teacher will say

Ah, it's a science project. It looks as though you're going to have to explain why nothing has changed, then.  Smile


User currently offlineZuluAviator994 From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 510 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3826 times:



Quoting David L (Reply 22):
David L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 6636 posts, RR: 20Reply 22, posted s_lt(1210592367, 'l F j Y H:i:s');Mon May 12 2008 06:39:27 your local time (7 hours 4 minutes 27 secs ago) and read 33 times:



Quoting ZuluAviator994 (Reply 18):Wonder what my science teacher will say
Ah, it's a science project. It looks as though you're going to have to explain why nothing has changed, then.  

Yeah, It's somewhat hard. He doesn't like what all you guys say, "Biased and under sourced." Is what he basically said. I know there is no effect, but can you guys find a source? Book or something maybe? Because I can't. And yeah David, sure is a project.....Hard one at that
Rgrds
MBarnes



If Speed is life, Altitude is life insurance. No one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 24, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3777 times:



Quoting ZuluAviator994 (Reply 23):
He doesn't like what all you guys say, "Biased and under sourced."

I report to you what I observe myself and what is captured by our many data acquisition systems on our fleet of hundreds of airliners, each flying thousands of hours each year and he says it is biased and undersourced. I give you information based upon data acquired in the real world and analyzed by staffs of engineers whose job it is to modify our flight operations based on real-time conditions and trends. This data and the conclusions from it is used to tune policies and procedures that are being taught to pilots and dispatchers at (at least three) major airlines (to my knowledge) and it is "undersourced." Well, the actual data is proprietary and will not be released to a school science project but believe me if there were any actual effects we would be compelled to do something in response to them by both rigid economic constraints and public safety issues. We are not. Nothing has changed in airline flight operations due to "global warming."

Quoting ZuluAviator994 (Reply 23):
I know there is no effect, but can you guys find a source?

If there is NO EFFECT, then you can't find a "source" for something that does not exist.
Are you telling me that the taxpayers of your municipality are paying the salary of a science teacher who asks his students to prove a negative?

Does he want a source? Here's a source. L. Ron Hubbard (you know - the founder of Scientology) wrote a science fiction novel with a story line about a guy who held the fresh air franchise for an entire planet. (I think it was "Ole Doc Methusaleh") He enslaved the entire population by controlling the air purifiers. What these machines actually did, however, was put pollen in the air causing breathing distress for masses of people and driving the need for his air purification. Brilliant scam.

Now I wouldn't go so far as to accuse Al Gore of being that tyrant. He might accuse the oil companies of promoting our very dependence on oil, but here is a fact, verifiable all over the internet and at libraries near you. In the few years since he started this global scare, Al Gore has increased his personal net worth by perhaps as much as a hundred million dollars. It might be fairly stated that Al Gore has a higher profit margin than the oil companies. All the while his personal energy use is ten times yours or mine - not including the Boeing 757 he uses to fly his one-man act around the world.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
25 Zuluaviator994 : Ok, Slamclick, I realize that all and I'm sorry if I came across like that, all I was doing was quoting, I know that airline information is confidenti
26 SlamClick : Well, so am I. Any reproach I might feel or express is directed entirely at the science teacher in question and to the (for profit) global warming mo
27 Post contains links Bond007 : Well, let me ask this, and it's irrelevant whether you want to call it 'global warming' or just a normal cycle or whatever. Do you not agree that glo
28 AlexEU : The affect on global warming caused by aviation is an even bigger issue.
29 SlamClick : That is not the question in the thread title. The opening question has been answered thoroughly here. Your question is more suited to non/av. My pers
30 CosmicCruiser : Well said, and I won't hop up on my soap box as if standing on speakers corner in Hyde Park.....but I could...
31 Post contains images Bond007 : LOL ....Not at all, it's directly related to the question about performance that you appeared to selectively miss   Forget NASA, forget Al Gore ....
32 SlamClick : CRAP! Read: Now, is there any doubt in your mind as to my answer to the question: "Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?" By the way, YOUR bias
33 Bond007 : Isn't it amazing what otherwise seemingly educated folks turn into when they see the words "global warming" ! If the question had asked the effect a t
34 ZuluAviator994 : lol, yeah, specially teachers. I agree with Dr H and Slam Click, and mate, really, my science teacher is a dickhead lol, but anyways, what about Avia
35 WPIAeroGuy : Sort of off topic- How does one go about calculating Earth's average temperature? A google search came up with some simple models using the energy rec
36 2H4 : Nothing "seemingly" educated about the man. Frankly, I'm surprised that you would stoop to the level of criticizing another's level of education or u
37 SlamClick : Now we are onto something actually verifiable. I have hundreds of pages of performance charts for DC-8, DC-9, DC-10, MD-11, MD-80, F-28, B707, B727,
38 Thegeek : SlamClick, If Global Average temperatures go up by 0.5 degree C, would there be an effect on Aviation? Sure. Would the effect on aviation be verifiabl
39 Bond007 : I simply asked that if one believes that temperatures are rising, then surely aircraft performance WILL be degraded, as you now correctly described a
40 SlamClick : It lies with scientific principles. If it can't be verified or measured how in the pluperfect hell can you call it an effect? Answer that.
41 SlamClick : Then be more honest in the way you ask the question. The answers you demanded had to be rooted in global warming-as-fact. Yet the question you asked
42 Starlionblue : In the 20s and 30s, the big boogeyman was "racial purity", from which came the cure: "Eugenics". And it wasn't just our friends in Germany who were i
43 Bond007 : I asked the same question, never mentioned anything being 'man made' and mentioned nothing political except when directly replying to something alrea
44 ContnlEliteCMH : No, we would have great answers on how much performance is affected. That temperature affects performance is not in doubt. So the question you should
45 ZuluAviator994 : Hey Slamclick, just so you know, it isnt me, Zuluaviator994, that your debating with. lol idk Bond007, but you both have some good arguments if i may
46 Thegeek : I thought that was a rhetorical question until I read that. There are many effects which can't be measured, like Quantum Physics in many applications
47 ZuluAviator994 : Hey, just so you all know, I'm going to link this page into my presentation (Microsoft Powerpoint) lol, just so ya know
48 SlamClick : Sorry, I do tend to get lost mid-thread and forget to whom I'm responding to...whom. Did I mention I get pretty drifty after reading these forums for
49 Zuluaviator994 : No Problem, happens to the best of us
50 Pihero : Hi, Guys ! Living in Europe and not in the USA, I find this discussion amazing and politics -internal US politics - have entered A.net in Civ-Av. I th
51 SlamClick : This is not the forum to debate that topic. That would be non-av. Read the question in the thread title and see if you don't agree the question has b
52 ZuluAviator994 : ok, sorry, I must have skipped over it. It was an assumption on the part of My Science Teacher, Mr. Geers, and yes, it did have a question in that gen
53 Starlionblue : Pihero. That's all well and good but your "evidence" is in fact not scientifically valid.
54 ZuluAviator994 : Agreed, and We all know the value of science in science class...lol Not to come across meanly or anything like that
55 ZuluAviator994 : And SlamClick, just so you know, I hold you with the upmost respect in this thread, and I appreciate all your answers and posts As well as everybody w
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