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New Large Freighter Aircraft  
User currently offlineFlipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2438 times:
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Some may remember that a few months ago I started a topic about a university project in which we had to design a freighter.
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/217201

Well the project is almost at an end and the aircraft is as defined as it is going to get with the reports all handed in now but we have a public (I think) design exhibition at the university on Wednesday and Thursday next week and so we have a model now in production which is due to be glassed tomorrow evening or Saturday morning.

Ok, well here is a link to the GA (I apologise for the dimensions being in mm, I'm sure you can work it out)
http://www.box.net/shared/vmc4xd4ow4

Here is a link to a data sheet (again sorry for the ridiculous number of sig. figs on some of the values).
http://www.box.net/shared/50mqi2ug4s

It is projected to have operating costs of 38.26c/t-nm. Can carry 20ft ISO shipping containers sideways in the main cabin and when packed using 118 inch high PMCs and with the projected 12lbs/ft^3 cargo density can carry a maximum of 187t of cargo but capable of 200t at higher densities and will transport 175t 5500nm.

It has an engine thrust of 90,860lb per engine, of which there is 4  Wink , a wing area of 869m^3 an MTOW of 590t and OWE of 230t.

The list price of the aircraft has been projected to be $320million.

Anyway here is a pretty pic
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/8854/greybackxq4.jpg

If you have any questions please ask as my team mates and I need to practice answering any questions for the large grilling we will get on it at the design exhibition.

thanks

Fred

P.S. I am well aware that it has a hump and so does a 747, look from the top and you'll see where 90% of the inspiration came from.

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLarshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1487 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2431 times:

It' looks good, I just think the nose looks a bit stubby.
How many 20 ft containers can fit in there?

/Lars



139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
User currently offlineFlipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2432 times:
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Quoting Larshjort (Reply 1):
How many 20 ft containers can fit in there?

17 I think.


User currently offlineFlipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2426 times:
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Quoting Larshjort (Reply 1):
How many 20 ft containers can fit in there?

EDIT: 23 can fit in.

Fred


User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10134 posts, RR: 26
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2416 times:
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Looks like the evil spawn of an A380 and a 747  Smile

Just had a cursory look at the specs table. Looks interesting - about all I can say after a brief look. What are the two drag coefficients (A and B)?

I'll be doing something similar next spring semester in my Aircraft Design class. Should be interesting (and a crapload of work).



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineFlipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2411 times:
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Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 4):
Just had a cursory look at the specs table. Looks interesting - about all I can say after a brief look. What are the two drag coefficients (A and B)?

The A part is the Lift independent drag and the B is the lift dependent drag (multiplied by Cl^2).

Fred


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17079 posts, RR: 66
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2411 times:

That is large. Big grin

Also very expensive. What's your market outlook in a world where Antonov can presumably dish out an An-225 for half the price?



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6420 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2408 times:



Quoting Flipdewaf (Thread starter):
P.S. I am well aware that it has a hump and so does a 747, look from the top and you'll see where 90% of the inspiration came from.

Space Shuttle solid rocket booster?  Silly



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineFlipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2404 times:
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Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):

747-8F is at about $300million list price. The Direct operating costs of the aircraft are about 16% lower than that of the 748F with a market of around 40% of the large general freight market (252 aircraft from 2020-2035) and 90% of all time sensitive items moving from container ships to airfreight (hence the ISO capability). As for the antanov thing, with predicted $4/US-gallon by 2020 then the trip costs of the an-225 would be truly astronomical as anywhere near MTOW it cruises at very low altitude.

Fred


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17079 posts, RR: 66
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2398 times:



Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 8):
747-8F is at about $300million list price. The Direct operating costs of the aircraft are about 16% lower than that of the 748F with a market of around 40% of the large general freight market (252 aircraft from 2020-2035) and 90% of all time sensitive items moving from container ships to airfreight (hence the ISO capability). As for the antanov thing, with predicted $4/US-gallon by 2020 then the trip costs of the an-225 would be truly astronomical as anywhere near MTOW it cruises at very low altitude.

Very good. Arent' you glad for the practice?  Wink



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineFlipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2393 times:
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Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):

Very good. Arent' you glad for the practice? Wink

Yes, Jeff Jupp (ex technical director of Airbus) is coming to give us a grilling and he is the cleverest person I have ever spoken too, He knows everything! the more I (and the team, its a team mark) can prepare the better.

Fred


User currently offlineRwessel From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2375 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2327 times:
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Given that you're designing a pure freighter:

Why low wing? It messes up the center of your cargo area (at least the lower deck). Second, you increase the height off the ground of the cargo doors. On the plus side, you do pick up ease of engine maintenance, and you get a better place to store some landing gear (although pods along the lower edges of the fuselage seem to work well too).

Why the emphasis on speed? M.85 for a freighter? Why not go with a much simpler straight wing optimized for M.70 or so? You'll save on high lift devices and get better short field performance to boot. The resulting thicker and straight wing will likely be structurally simpler, and weigh less to boot.

Please don't take this as criticism of your work, I'm just curious about some of your decisions.


User currently offlinePoint8six From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2008, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2254 times:

Did you do the project on current (at the time) fuel prices or projected prices? (You quote 38.26 c/t nm.
Does the a/c have a nose-door for loading? Not all freight is loaded in containers due to unusual dimensions.
Mach 0.85 as a cruise speed (as opposed to M0.70) is because of the wing design and available engine thrust, however at the predicted MTOW, only those few airports that are "A380 compliant" would be available, due load bearing surfaces etc..
I'll bet you have has a lot of fun in this project and good luck for the rest of your course.
By the way, ask Jeff Jupp what he thinks the oil price will be in a years time! bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31692 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2236 times:

Streamlining the Nose would help increase fuel efficiency in my opinion.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17079 posts, RR: 66
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2208 times:

It definitely needs a better livery. Get some marketing person on the project now. I'm serious. Gray does not sell.  Wink

Or just ask your friendly polls and opinions crowd.  Wink



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineJetlife2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 221 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2207 times:

What do you assume for engine sfc? Drives fuel burn and direct operating cost. I see your overall pressure ratio is 39 so that's lower than a GE90 (40). On this basis you could use off the shelf GE90-90B's and meet your goal. Let me know where you want the first ship set delivered, that'll be about $100M please, or less if you want to sign up for a few sets!

User currently offlineFlipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2185 times:
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Quoting Jetlife2 (Reply 15):
What do you assume for engine sfc? Drives fuel burn and direct operating cost. I see your overall pressure ratio is 39 so that's lower than a GE90 (40). On this basis you could use off the shelf GE90-90B's and meet your goal. Let me know where you want the first ship set delivered, that'll be about $100M please, or less if you want to sign up for a few sets!

Engine sfc is around 5% better than current but its too variable to give you an exact value in cruise. Pressure ratio isnt the only thing that determines efficiency although it will be predicted to be to around 50 by the time 2020 came around.

Quoting Point8six (Reply 12):
however at the predicted MTOW, only those few airports that are "A380 compliant"

The ACN number is 69 to give us better airport compatability than the A380.

Fred


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