ZuluAviator994 From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 506 posts, RR: 0 Posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1803 times:
Ok, heres my question. Say you take off and your flying on a flight, say an ERJ flight, from KORD to KCID, and then once your in the air, the Tornado Sirens in KCID go off. I know this is unlikely, but what if the atc messes up? On sunday, the entire Iowa-Illinois border was covered in storms. So back to my question: What happens when your at 33,000 feet, can't make it anywhere else because of fuel problems, and there's a tornado going on?
Also, do the ERJs even have WX? Sorry for my ignorance...
Thanks
If Speed is life, Altitude is life insurance. No one has ever collided with the sky.
Miller22 From United States, joined Nov 2000, 604 posts, RR: 6 Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1794 times:
RJ's have on-board radar, which would show purple. Bad. Quick answer is, you don't go near tornadoes. Never. Not even those crazy hurricane watcher's go near tornadoes. The good news is, they're very easy to avoid in aircraft. Just stay away from the red and purple splotches.
Bonafide Airplane Geek from the Airplane Geeks Podcast
Well... are there actually storms...? You'd be looking at the radar before starting your approach. If you saw a line you'd do a missed approach and divert to your alternate.
Part of flight planning is knowing what the weather will be like when you GET to where you're going. If you have a 2 hour flight and a major storm front is headed towards your arrival airport and it's moving at 30MPH, and is 60 miles away from the airport... that storm from will be on top the airport when you get there.
[Edited 2008-05-27 18:55:13]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
Miller22 From United States, joined Nov 2000, 604 posts, RR: 6 Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1779 times:
Quoting ZuluAviator994 (Reply 2): k, but say ur on approach and the sirens go off, a freak occurance..would u go around or just land quickly?
An airplane on the ground is no better than in the air during a tornado. You would go around very quickly, then start synchronizing your story with the guy sitting next to you for the inevitable conversation you're going to have with the chief pilot, and possibly FAA, about why you were anywhere near a tornado.
Bonafide Airplane Geek from the Airplane Geeks Podcast
Pilotpip From United States, joined Sep 2003, 2608 posts, RR: 13 Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1735 times:
We wouldn't even be going there. If there's even a question of weather we have extra fuel and alternates. We always give ourselves an out.
Example: Two days ago ATL-IND dispatch sent us over 200 miles out of our way over Charlestown, WV and then to indy versus going on what is basically a direct routing for a line of storms that were around Chattanooga.
I have radar onboard, flight watch, dispatch, and weather on the ground from ATIS and other sources. Tornados don't just "pop up" while we're on approach. If the weather is bad we're sitting on the ground waiting it out either at our departure airport or at an alternate.
So your storms are across the Illinios/Iowa border don't matter. If we have enough fuel to go CID-ORD we have enough fuel to go to, off the top of my head, DSM, MSP, STL, COU, OMA, and about any other airport within 500 miles. Can't go east? Go west, north or south.
Bond007 From United States, joined Mar 2005, 4492 posts, RR: 11 Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1733 times:
Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3): Well... are there actually storms...?
Exactly. Tornados generally do not just appear ... they are produced by severe thunderstorm 'supercells' that any sensible pilot wouldn't be flying into anyway. They rarely occur in storm systems that aircraft would be flying through.
Basically, you'd be steering around the storm, or holding until it passed, long before it gets to the supercell stage where a tornado could develop.
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
Miller22 From United States, joined Nov 2000, 604 posts, RR: 6 Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1675 times:
Quoting 2H4 (Reply 5): Quoting Miller22 (Reply 1):
ok, but say ur on approach and the sirens go off, a freak occurance..would u go around or just land quickly?
No offense intended, but is it really that difficult to spell "you're" and "you" in their entirety? Smile
Be careful who you quote. You have my name quoting someone else's grammar problems.
Bonafide Airplane Geek from the Airplane Geeks Podcast
Avioniker From United States, joined Dec 2001, 1098 posts, RR: 16 Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1638 times:
Six years ago I was in the jump seat on final to MCI. As we passed the MM the tower bailed out and a funnel dropped on the departure end of the runway. Both pilots sucked all the air out of the plane - it happened that quick. TCAS is a very good thing.
If you had told me before that day an MD-83 could do a 180 in its own length I would have called you many things but not sane. I haven't felt that queazy since 1986, but that's another story.
We went to the published hold after talking to Kansas City approach and waited the thing out for 30 minutes while the controllers got fresh underwear. Luckily nothing but a couple of trees and a cow were hurt and the storm veered away from the main terminal.
Bottom line is, you don't go near it, you never run into your reserve fuel unless your primary is out of the question, and you stay in contact with ATC. If there are storms in the area ATC will put you somewhere safe to wait it out. Happens all the time at CID coming from DFW. When I'm coming in from ORD we usually wait at the gate.
One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
Bond007 From United States, joined Mar 2005, 4492 posts, RR: 11 Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1454 times:
Quoting ZuluAviator994 (Reply 15): yes, thanks Jimbo..i know all that so...i was just wondering, thats all
If you know all that, then what were you 'just wondering', and why did you ask the question?
Just wondering myself.
When your grammar and spelling is so appalling, it's very tough to know what is a question and what is a statement.
I guess I won't take my time to try and explain something you already know, even though you asked a question apparently, and were incorrect in some respects.
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
ZuluAviator994 From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 506 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1382 times:
...I knew it because others had answered.
And sorry? My grammar? I made one mistake. Sorry
Yes, please take your time, because I really don't mean to come across as mean or anything like that, but I will stand up for myself, thank you.
Mir From United States, joined Jan 2004, 12974 posts, RR: 65 Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1306 times:
Quoting ZuluAviator994 (Thread starter): What happens when your at 33,000 feet, can't make it anywhere else because of fuel problems, and there's a tornado going on?
Then you already screwed up by getting yourself into a position from which you have no escape route. If there are storms over my destination, and it comes to the point where I barely have enough fuel to make it to my alternate, I'm diverting right then and there.
It happened to a flight that my father was on recently from EWR to OMA. Weather was bad in OMA and the surrounding airports, and there was no guarantee that they'd be able to safely divert. They turned around over Pennsylvania and headed back to EWR.
Quoting ZuluAviator994 (Reply 11): You're no longer in an ERJ, say a 747 coming into ORD from a long haul. Therefore, you can land in storms.
Just because it's a 747 doesn't mean it can land in storms. A 747 would probably fare marginally better in a tornado than an ERJ, but by marginally better I mean that just half the people on board would die instead of all of them.
All planes, not just small ones, should avoid flying in the kind of thunderstorms than can spawn tornadoes. Those storms are also likely to contain severe or extreme turbulence, massive updrafts, hail, windshear, microbursts, etc. (aka virtually eveery weather hazard known to aviation).
ZuluAviator994 From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 506 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1298 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 19): Just because it's a 747 doesn't mean it can land in storms. A 747 would probably fare marginally better in a tornado than an ERJ, but by marginally better I mean that just half the people on board would die instead of all of them
Yes, but for that scenario I was assuming that the Tornado had not already touched down.
Thanks for your reply however
Now a question, how come the triple sevens only have manual adjusting WX instead of automatic?
If Speed is life, Altitude is life insurance. No one has ever collided with the sky.
Bond007 From United States, joined Mar 2005, 4492 posts, RR: 11 Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1270 times:
Quoting ZuluAviator994 (Reply 20): Yes, but for that scenario I was assuming that the Tornado had not already touched down.
Well, the answer is the same except for the severity. As mentioned before, the fact that it is a 747 on long-haul is irrelevant. It must have an alternate just like the ERJ must. Your assumption that because it's bigger than an ERJ it can land in storms is incorrect.
Quoting ZuluAviator994 (Reply 20): Now a question, how come the triple sevens only have manual adjusting WX instead of automatic?
Do you mean WX radar?
If you do, I don't what models/options have which avionics, but the Collins equipped aircraft have a fully automatic system. The part which is manual is the tilt, and the latest Collins WXR systems all have automatic scanning with various tilt angles. I think the manual tilt is probably Honeywell.
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
Boeing4ever From United States, joined Apr 2001, 4855 posts, RR: 49 Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1234 times:
Simple procedure for flying through thunderstorms...don't.
"There's absolutely no good reason to fly through a thunderstorm during peacetime." - Sign at a Military airbase...and those pilots shoot and get shot at!
Now, if a plane happened upon a tornado, well, expect severe turbulence and windshear. Don't forgot dodging flying debris...flying fast moving debris. If a 2x4 can smash through a brick wall in a Tornado, that thing would be better than a SAM towards an airplane.
The likelyhood of that happening is slim, most pilots are better decision makers. Pilots are responsible for checking enroute weather and weather at destination. Now if you had a pilot with a death wish...
Quoting Mir (Reply 19): All planes, not just small ones, should avoid flying in the kind of thunderstorms than can spawn tornadoes. Those storms are also likely to contain severe or extreme turbulence, massive updrafts, hail, windshear, microbursts, etc. (aka virtually eveery weather hazard known to aviation).
??
Now the hail...on the ground, the hail could be up to the size of a softball...at colder temps at altitude, more like bowling ball.
??B4e-Forever New Frontiers??
[Edited 2008-05-29 20:07:11]
Eagles may soar, but weasels are never sucked into jet engines!
I figured turbulance would be bad in a Tornado, but those kinds of g loading? Yeesh. Nowadays, we can assume modern weather radar and knowledge of what kinds of cells can create Tornados would prevent this...again, unless the pilot has a death wish. As for a rare "sudden appearance", that article said check your altimeter...if you're climbing while level, look out.
B4e-Forever New Frontiers
Eagles may soar, but weasels are never sucked into jet engines!
This was exactly the crash I was thinking of when I saw this thread. Apparently, the altimeter registered a HUGE increase in altitude during the incident, though this was caused by the extreme low pressure area in the twister.
The various sources around this flight say that the crew were well aware of the storms, indicating that this was a serious case of pilot error. Why on earth would they do this? Was it just complacency? Get-there-itis? Company pressure to deliver? ( I believe that SAA lost an aircraft to fire because of this. It's insane).
I realise I'm asking you to second-guess the motivations of a dead man but what, apart from suicidal tendencies, would make you willingly do this?
Boeing4ever From United States, joined Apr 2001, 4855 posts, RR: 49 Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 1021 times:
Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 21): The various sources around this flight say that the crew were well aware of the storms, indicating that this was a serious case of pilot error. Why on earth would they do this? Was it just complacency? Get-there-itis? Company pressure to deliver? ( I believe that SAA lost an aircraft to fire because of this. It's insane).
I realise I'm asking you to second-guess the motivations of a dead man but what, apart from suicidal tendencies, would make you willingly do this?
Beats me. But a lot of the things we regard as common sense are taken for granted. Someone had to make it common sense the hard way. Nevertheless, we'll never know why the crew didn't fly around the storms, divert, or head back.
B4e-Forever New Frontiers
Eagles may soar, but weasels are never sucked into jet engines!
ZuluAviator994 From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 506 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 997 times:
Quoting Bond007 (Reply 14): Your assumption that because it's bigger than an ERJ it can land in storms is incorrect.
That wasn't my assumption, my assumption was that seeing as the 747 has a more precise ILS capacity, it might (depending on the Operator, and airport) be able to land in some severe weather.
However, I do agree with you in the fact that you shouldn't be near a thunderstorm
If Speed is life, Altitude is life insurance. No one has ever collided with the sky.
Boeing4ever From United States, joined Apr 2001, 4855 posts, RR: 49 Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 987 times:
Quoting ZuluAviator994 (Reply 23): That wasn't my assumption, my assumption was that seeing as the 747 has a more precise ILS capacity, it might (depending on the Operator, and airport) be able to land in some severe weather.
However, I do agree with you in the fact that you shouldn't be near a thunderstorm
I don't understand why a 747 would have more precise ILS capacity than an ERJ. I admit I'm not up on instrument operations, but I'd say that both types would be designed to handle ILS, and the ERJ might actually be more precise by virtue of being a newer design. Unless you're comparing a 747-400 which is still an '80's design. The only difference would be CAT I/II/III certs as far as I know. And even then, instrument rules would prevent a plane from trying to land in the middle of a T-storm. Really cloudy, foggy, and rainy weather a plane can handle, but a thunderstorm is a major churning up of the atmosphere, usually planes are diverted.
But to answer your question from your first post, just look at the links in Reply 19 and Reply 20. Examples of poor crew decision making and the power of a Tornado having an effect on a Fokker F28.
So to answer your question...what would happen if a plane flew in a tornado? Bad things.
And I'm not picking on you. In fact that question shows WHY such systems are developed. The likelyhood of a plane trying to land or takeoff or fly through a tornado was higher in the past when weathers systems were less well understood and ATC would less well developed. As a result of the very answer to your original question we have systems in place to prevent such accidents or even such encounters from ocurring in the first place.
B4e-Forever New Frontiers
Eagles may soar, but weasels are never sucked into jet engines!
ZuluAviator994 From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 506 posts, RR: 0 Reply 25, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 977 times:
Ok, thanks B4e, I appreciate your responses. And I was only going off of (for the ILS) that the 747 has a higher cat. rating, usually. And also, I believe the 747 has a high Xwind capability.
Thanks for the info on the new 'systems'
If Speed is life, Altitude is life insurance. No one has ever collided with the sky.
26 Mir: Which means nothing unless you're actually going to be flying the ILS down to those minimums. Generally a thunderstorm will allow a CatI approach wer
27 DashTrash: Unless you knew what you were looking for (hook echo) chances are you wouldn't know there was a tornado. You would know about the rest of the severe w
28 DiscoverCSG: Has anybody ever been at a major hub airport when a tornado approached? How do you take cover if you're on board a plane away from the terminal? Every
29 EMBQA: This was covered last year...The plane would first never be boarded....second, it would never leave the gate. Tornados don't just 'appear'...!!! Torn
30 CosmicCruiser: Actually a much bigger threat to a/c in the terminal area (t/o & ldg) would be downburst and the associated windshear from a large thunderstorm, the
31 EMBQA: .......and Hail...!! American Eagle had their Saab fleet desomaited back about 10 years ago. A line of strong storms went threw DFW and something lik
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