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Lemon Law For Aircraft?  
User currently offlineManfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6169 times:

Here in the states, if you purchase an automobile and it has continuous problems which detract from the safety of the vehicle, the company is required to purchase it back. The "lemon law" is a consumer protection law.

I'm wondering if aircraft manufacturers are bound by some kind of law which required them to take back or replace an aircraft if it continuously breaks. What kind of warranty does a new aircraft come with?

Can anyone share a story about a particular airplane that has had continuous problems from delivery and what was done about it?


757: The last of the best
19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSmcmac32msn From United States of America, joined May 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6132 times:

The only one that comes to mind for me is the Beechcraft Starship. Raetheon bought back all of them, and sent them all to the desert to be broken up. In return for giving up your Starship they gave you a Raetheon Premier, their newest plane at the time.


Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
User currently offlineManfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5875 times:



Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 1):
In return for giving up your Starship they gave you a Raetheon Premier, their newest plane at the time.

Did they ask for additional money PLUS the new aircraft or was it an even exchange? Are there any Starships that weren't broken up?



757: The last of the best
User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3964 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5862 times:

An airplane is a good. Why should there be specific rules on purchasing aircraft? If it comes with a fault, normal rules would apply unless the parties have modified these principles of contract law.

User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5820 times:



Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 1):
In return for giving up your Starship they gave you a Raetheon Premier, their newest plane at the time.

The Raytheon Premier has to be the fugliest biz jet in the universe. Having said that, do you have a source that Raytheon recalled Starships that were actually purchased and not just ones out on lease?



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5367 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5811 times:

The aircraft will be worked by the airline's maintenance group. Parts and labor will be covered by the manufacturer. That statement is a very broad stroke of the brush...the actual terms will be dependant on the sales contract.


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5776 times:



Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 1):
The only one that comes to mind for me is the Beechcraft Starship.

That had nothing to do with quality or 'Lemon Law' issues. Beech only made and sold 50 airframes and it was becoming an issue to offer fleet support for such a small number.


Quoting Manfredj (Reply 2):
Are there any Starships that weren't broken up?

Yes... one or two went on display....one is flown by a friend of the Rutans and was used during the Starship One trials



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5706 times:

To answer about a "Lemon Law" for airliners: McDonnell Douglas didn't take back the MD-11's.

User currently offlineCygnusChicago From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5662 times:

Airbus didn't take back AA's A300s....
 Wink



If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
User currently offlineManfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5656 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 7):
McDonnell Douglas didn't take back the MD-11's.

Haha, I assume you are not an MD-11 fan. I forgot all about the reliability issues with them. Were compensations made to the individual airlines for performing under claimed efficiency? I can't help but to think Delta would still have theirs today if it (Md-11) performed the way it was supposed to.



757: The last of the best
User currently offlineBravo1Six From Canada, joined Dec 2007, 397 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5595 times:



Quoting Manfredj (Thread starter):
Here in the states, if you purchase an automobile and it has continuous problems which detract from the safety of the vehicle, the company is required to purchase it back. The "lemon law" is a consumer protection law.

I'm wondering if aircraft manufacturers are bound by some kind of law which required them to take back or replace an aircraft if it continuously breaks. What kind of warranty does a new aircraft come with?

"Lemon laws" are typically only applicable to consumer transactions as you noted and thus wouldn't apply to a commercial transaction between a manufacturer and a customer. That said, some jurisdictions extend similar types of laws to all transactions (primarily civil law jurisdictions like France and Quebec). Those aren't really "lemon laws", but more in the nature of imposing liability on a seller of goods even for latent defects.

Aircraft warranties are stipulated in the purchase agreement and are a matter of contract. They are always time limited and generally only require the manufacturer to correct the problem at its cost. The customer has no right to return the aircraft to the manufacturer regardless of the problem.


User currently offlineCrjfixer From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5503 times:



Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 5):
The aircraft will be worked by the airline's maintenance group. Parts and labor will be covered by the manufacturer. That statement is a very broad stroke of the brush...the actual terms will be dependant on the sales contract.

This is correct, and if an airplane gives enough problems the manufacturer will normally send down a team to assist in repair/troubleshooting


User currently offlineTF39 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5261 times:

WRT non-broken up Starships:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 6):
Yes... one or two went on display....one is flown by a friend of the Rutans and was used during the Starship One trials

I believe one is still hanging from the ceiling at the Evergreen Aviation museum in McMinnville Oregon. Been a couple of years since I've been there so I could be wrong.


User currently offlineWingscrubber From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 845 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5065 times:

There's a starship at Kansas aviation museum in wichita...


Resident TechOps Troll
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8504 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5042 times:



Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 4):
Having said that, do you have a source that Raytheon recalled Starships that were actually purchased and not just ones out on lease?

Beech didn't actually recall them, but didn't renew the leases of the ones that were leased and made offers to the owners of the owned Starships. Most of them took Raytheon up on the offer except for a few.

53 Starships were built and it is my understanding that 4-5 are still flying.


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4909 times:



Quoting Manfredj (Thread starter):
I'm wondering if aircraft manufacturers are bound by some kind of law which required them to take back or replace an aircraft if it continuously breaks.

Generally, no.

Quoting Manfredj (Thread starter):
What kind of warranty does a new aircraft come with?

Typically, some number of years of coverage for faulty components and manufacturing defects. If it's really bad, the OEM will typically send their own team to take care of it but this is more often a business consideration than a warranty issue.

Tom.


User currently offlineARFFdude From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 151 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4857 times:



Quoting Manfredj (Reply 2):
Are there any Starships that weren't broken up?

There's at least one that's still flying somewhat regularly. I see it here at HPN from time to time.


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4853 times:

Some of you may find this interesting:

http://www.warrantyweek.com/archive/ww20040302.html


User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 45
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4843 times:



Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 8):
Airbus didn't take back AA's A300s....

You mean because they are efficient, haul more cargo than competing aircraft in the fleet, and are perfect for their Latin American routes?


User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 45
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4841 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 17):
Some of you may find this interesting:

http://www.warrantyweek.com/archive/....html

That's a great article, thank you for posting it.

I have a friend who does warranty administration at NWA and it is an amazingly complex job. Talking to him about component and airframe OEM's is a very eye-opening experience. He definitely has strong opinions on which are the best and worst manufacturers to work with.


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