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Why No Nose-door On A Converted 747?  
User currently offlineTommyBP251b From Germany, joined Apr 2006, 456 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 4613 times:

Hi everybody!

I just would like to ask, why it is not possible to install a nose door on the 747s which are converted to a Freighter. What is the reason for this? Would it make to much damage to the frame? Are their some problems with cables which are lying in the affected area?

Thank you for answers.

Best Regards Tom


Tom from Cologne
13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePoint8six From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2008, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 4616 times:

Probably cost. The nose-door is not always used.

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4604 times:

Anything is possible but that's one expensive mod. I imagine you'll have to do a lot of rewiring if nothing else. Also you'd have to certify the mod first. A side door is a much simpler mod.

While the nose door is useful, you can easily use a side door for the vast majority of cargoes. The nose door may save you some time, but it's still not worth it.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offline744rules From Belgium, joined Mar 2002, 407 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4540 times:

Note that on a 747 with nose door only, the risk of tipping is much higher, compaired to side door loading/offloading

User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4484 times:



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
While the nose door is useful, you can easily use a side door for the vast majority of cargoes. The nose door may save you some time, but it's still not worth it.

Interestingly enough, the ground turn times computed by Boeing are much shorter with a nose/side door combo when compared to a side door only. IIRC, it's about 30 minutes more for the side door only. Most companies, while not needing the nose door except for specific cargo, do use it to load both ends at the same time. Especially if you have lower height dense pallets that can pass through the restricted height area in the nose.

Quoting TommyBP251b (Thread starter):

I just would like to ask, why it is not possible to install a nose door on the 747s which are converted to a Freighter. What is the reason for this? Would it make to much damage to the frame? Are their some problems with cables which are lying in the affected area?

Quite simple. $$$$ No one has ever wanted to pay the cost involved for the STC certification.


User currently offlineTod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1721 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4462 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 4):
Quite simple. $$$$ No one has ever wanted to pay the cost involved for the STC certification.

Exactly.
Without access to the Boeing TC data, reinventing that wheel would be more than the plane is worth.


User currently offlineJetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2634 posts, RR: 53
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4430 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 4):
Interestingly enough, the ground turn times computed by Boeing are much shorter with a nose/side door combo when compared to a side door only. IIRC, it's about 30 minutes more for the side door only.

I agree. Most 747 freighters I have seen at SYD usually use the nose door if so equipped. It is extremely useful for long items. I once witnessed the unloading of a large stainless steel commercial food processing piece of equipment from the nose door of a 747. This piece of equipment was easily 10 or 12 metres long, and almost as large as the nose door aperture in cross section. I have my doubts if it could have being taken aboard by the side door.

Regards, JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlineTommyBP251b From Germany, joined Apr 2006, 456 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4424 times:



Quoting 744rules (Reply 3):
Note that on a 747 with nose door only, the risk of tipping is much higher, compaired to side door loading/offloading

I thought about installing both and not only installing a nose door.

Thx for your answers.

Regards Tom



Tom from Cologne
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4342 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 4):
Interestingly enough, the ground turn times computed by Boeing are much shorter with a nose/side door combo when compared to a side door only. IIRC, it's about 30 minutes more for the side door only. Most companies, while not needing the nose door except for specific cargo, do use it to load both ends at the same time. Especially if you have lower height dense pallets that can pass through the restricted height area in the nose.

I was unclear. I meant it's not worth certifying and installing it. Of course the nose door is a big advantage in operations once you have it.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4335 times:



Quoting TommyBP251b (Thread starter):
I just would like to ask, why it is not possible to install a nose door on the 747s which are converted to a Freighter.

It's possible, just not economical.

Quoting Tod (Reply 5):
Without access to the Boeing TC data, reinventing that wheel would be more than the plane is worth.

Even if you had the TC data, it would be a ferociously complex mod. The fuselage structure on a non-nose-door 747 would need to enormously modified to take the extra loads. This is similar to the structural issues with installing a side door, but much larger in magnitude.

Tom.


User currently offlineMendaero From Australia, joined Jul 2006, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4098 times:



Quoting JetMech (Reply 6):
Most 747 freighters I have seen at SYD usually use the nose door if so equipped

I would have to say the opposite, I cant remember the last time i've seen a nose door opened at SYD. Every Atlas 744F, I have arrived (mostly leave empty), they only use the side door.


User currently offlineSpeedmarque From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 684 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3799 times:

I am not sure but having looked at a few 747s up close (usually waiting for transport to crew car park after a flight) it seems like there is a seam or crease in section 41 (?) roughly where the door is on a cargo 747.

Is this true?


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3751 times:



Quoting Speedmarque (Reply 11):
I am not sure but having looked at a few 747s up close (usually waiting for transport to crew car park after a flight) it seems like there is a seam or crease in section 41 (?) roughly where the door is on a cargo 747.

It's probably a butt splice in the fuselage. It would make some of the tooling simpler if they held the same lengths for each section, if if they weren't fitting a nose door.

Tom.


User currently offlineJohnClipper From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2005, 826 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3604 times:

SCDs can accomodate higher pallets than through the nose. Also there are a FEW early B747-200Fs that were flying around that were built with only the swing nose door - no SCD. D-ABYE comes to mind.

[Edited 2008-06-24 00:47:31]

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