Trent1000 From Japan, joined Jan 2007, 421 posts, RR: 2 Posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3429 times:
At major hubs, such as LHR or FRA, how long can aircraft be kept in a holding pattern circling before landing? I realise this probably depends on the aircraft type and where the flight is coming from, but is there any kind of 'priority' system or are planes simply stacked in order until they have to land or are diverted?
EMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9286 posts, RR: 13 Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3398 times:
Quoting Trent1000 (Thread starter): how long can aircraft be kept in a holding pattern circling before landing?
Until they run out of fuel......
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3321 times:
Quoting Askr (Reply 3): Wild guess,, but prubably first come, first served...
Unless someone declares a fuel emergency...
Pretty much it right there, also I know of situations (internally) where aircraft-A has a hold but not much fuel while our aircraft-B has a hold but has oodles of fuel so we coordinate with ATC and get aircraft-A inbound with no delay while ATC "doubles-up" on aircraft-B who gets twice the delay.
Sometimes, the same coordination is effected from flights of different airlines. More than once I've heard of cases where airLINE-A and airLINE-B are both holding, with one having sufficient gas for the hold and the other not, and the guy/gal with the gas will let the low-gas guy/gal in ahead of them. Some civility does remain...
Tristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3687 posts, RR: 34 Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3260 times:
With modern slot alloocation you rarely go round the hold at LHR more than 2 or 3 times.
When I was at school, we had the Epsom beacon in our grounds.
This was 1960, and usually when we went into school at 0900 there were about 10 aircraft stacked over the beacon, DC7s and Britannias and maybe a Deux-ponts or a Connie.
BA777 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2138 posts, RR: 8 Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 3030 times:
You can't hold until you run out of fuel, simple! Say the weather was bad and you were waiting for it to improve, you have to be able to leave the hold...fly to your most fuel critical alternate and arrive with final reserves remaining (30 minutes, 1500ft above the airfield in standard conditions)
Ba97 From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 377 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 2987 times:
The stacks at LHR - Is there a vertical limit? When I fly into LHR we do figure 8s cork screwing down sveral laps. I gather you keep piling onto the top of the stack as more come in. Is there a limit and you move to start an outer market stack when full?
there is economy class, business class, first class...then Concorde..pure class
CosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2211 posts, RR: 17 Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 2976 times:
Quoting BA777 (Reply 7): you have to be able to leave the hold...fly to your most fuel critical alternate and arrive with final reserves remaining (30 minutes, 1500ft above the airfield in standard conditions)
not really that's just for flight planning. You can use the fuel as you see fit. What may be prudent is another question. Would you just hold until you had to declare min fuel or an emergency?? Let's hope not. I've left holding more than once because I couldn't rely on ATC to have me on the ground in a reasonable time so I went to the alt and fueled and came back. The first thing you do when you enter holding is determine your amount of fuel you can burn/ amt of time in holding.
LHR27C From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 1279 posts, RR: 18 Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2840 times:
Quoting Ba97 (Reply 9): The stacks at LHR - Is there a vertical limit? When I fly into LHR we do figure 8s cork screwing down sveral laps. I gather you keep piling onto the top of the stack as more come in. Is there a limit and you move to start an outer market stack when full?
Minimum holding altitude is 7000 feet. This is to ensure separation with departures beneath which are restricted to a max of 6000 until clear of the stacks.
As far as I know there is no upper limit. The highest I remember holding at LHR was FL140 coming into Lambourne when it was particularly clogged up one evening after an emergency landing.
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
Ba97 From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 377 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2764 times:
thanks-- which now make me think - what is the horizontal separation - horizontal being a general reference in that I know it is an incline. I have watched out my window at us criss crossing others at different altitudes. Do you have it set that one is on each leg of the 8in opposite directions?
and then another question- what other airports have figure 8s compared to circles or squares.....? I think I have too much time on my hands to be wondering all this.
there is economy class, business class, first class...then Concorde..pure class
Mastropiero From Spain, joined Dec 2005, 121 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2718 times:
This leads to a question of my own: when did LHR started doing figure 8s instead of squares - rectangles, rather - ? I remember a few years ago, 2002 to be more precise, I flew MAN - LHR and we did rectangles for sure, about 4 or 5 of them.
BuckFifty From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1314 posts, RR: 21 Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2697 times:
Quoting Ba97 (Reply 14): thanks-- which now make me think - what is the horizontal separation - horizontal being a general reference in that I know it is an incline. I have watched out my window at us criss crossing others at different altitudes. Do you have it set that one is on each leg of the 8in opposite directions?
and then another question- what other airports have figure 8s compared to circles or squares.....? I think I have too much time on my hands to be wondering all this.
Quoting Mastropiero (Reply 15): This leads to a question of my own: when did LHR started doing figure 8s instead of squares - rectangles, rather - ? I remember a few years ago, 2002 to be more precise, I flew MAN - LHR and we did rectangles for sure, about 4 or 5 of them.
Holding anywhere across the world is always done in elongated oval patterns (racetracks), either using time or distance as a reference for the inbound and outbound legs. There are no figure 8's. The altitude will always remain constant, unless if you're cleared for descent in the hold. However, in that case, the aircraft below you must have vacated the altitude and reached the next one before you can descend that 1000'. No two aircraft can ever, ever hold at the same altitude in the same hold, period.
If you're peering out at Lambourne, it may seem odd that you see planes that may appear to be at the same level as you, just because there could be quite a few of them in the hold. But in actual reality, they're not, just because the visual cues you get may make an aircraft seem closer than they actually are. The minimal vertical separation is always at least 1000', and you will not get any closer than that. And since aircraft are already separated by altitude, there is no horizontal separation criteria.
David L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9210 posts, RR: 42 Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2685 times:
Quoting Mastropiero (Reply 15): I remember a few years ago, 2002 to be more precise, I flew MAN - LHR and we did rectangles for sure, about 4 or 5 of them.
The last time I was in the hold for LHR was in 2005 and they were definitely still race track shaped then.
Mastropiero From Spain, joined Dec 2005, 121 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2672 times:
Quoting David L (Reply 17):
checkmark The last time I was in the hold for LHR was in 2005 and they were definitely still race track shaped then.
Quoting BuckFifty (Reply 16):
There are no figure 8's.
Well, there you go, then. Perhaps the way the hold was entered or left just made it seem like a figure-8.
Thank you for that, I hadn´t heard of figure 8s either but hey, it would take me a day to list all the things I´ve heard of that exist, and probably a whole decade to list all the things I hadn´t heard of that exist too...
LHR27C From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 1279 posts, RR: 18 Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 6 days ago) and read 2667 times:
Quoting David L (Reply 17): Well, there you go, then. Perhaps the way the hold was entered or left just made it seem like a figure-8.
You can enter the hold with a teardrop entry which might seem a bit like a figure of 8, but to the best of my knowledge this isn't done at LHR generally. What might look a bit like a figure of 8 and is more common is coming off Lambourne for a 27 arrival, aircraft will fly west for a few miles, then do a 180 degree left hand turn back to the east, to slot them into the arrivals stream.
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
Neither have I. I thought the whole point of the race track path was that it's relatively simple to perform a Rate 1 (?) turn on to a reciprocal heading (though I guess the headings for a figure-8 would be published). Another advantage is that any aircraft in close horizontal proximity are always travelling in the same direction, which would not always be the case at the centre of a figure-8.
Ba97 From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 377 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2585 times:
thanks all. Most educational. I think the combination of early hours arrival and being half spun on time zone changes, the oval feels more like an extended oval in that short chutes are in the middle of the U turn. I thought it was an "8" is because the turns are not done in one motion but a series of bank level bank level actions (or that is how it appears) and looking down makes you feel like each bank is a greater directional turn. It would make for an interesting photo if one caught a stack of planes in the "race track
there is economy class, business class, first class...then Concorde..pure class
Hywel From Peru, joined Apr 2008, 717 posts, RR: 3 Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2321 times:
The longest hold I've experienced was flying into LHR from FRA in 2004... the flight time from FRA to the holding pattern was just under an hour, and then we circled over North London for a further 90 minutes...
The pilot announced it was a good job they'd put enough fuel in for the return journey, otherwise we'd have been diverted to STN. The exceptionally long delay was due to high winds at LHR in which one of the runways had been closed for 45 minutes.
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From Japan, joined Jan 2007, 421 posts, 
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but I think the thread starter meant other constraints and procedures.
From Poland, joined Mar 2008, 45 posts, 
From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3687 posts, 
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From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 377 posts, 
From Spain, joined Dec 2005, 121 posts, 
The last time I was in the hold for LHR was in 2005 and they were definitely still race track shaped then.
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