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 CRJ Takeoff Question
 KSBD From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 53 posts, RR: 0Posted Sun Jun 15 2008 05:57:15 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 13769 times:

 Does anybody know the takeoff angle of attack for a CRJ-700? Figure for MTOW. Thanks!
 50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17654 posts, RR: 65 Reply 1, posted Sun Jun 15 2008 07:06:20 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 13753 times:

 Wouldn't that depend on altitude and temperature anyway?
 "There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 KSBD From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 53 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted Sun Jun 15 2008 07:27:03 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 13747 times:

 Sure. But I'm thinking the average....like between 10 and 15 degrees.
 AAH732UAL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted Sun Jun 15 2008 08:24:20 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 13732 times:

 I don't think there is a set number. Just start a 3 degree per sec smooth rotation at Vr till you are in the air. There is prolly some sorta of limit to prevent a tail strike...... but at 3 degrees per sec.... that plane will not need 5 secs to rotate.
 PhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted Sun Jun 15 2008 08:38:33 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 13723 times:

 Quoting KSBD (Thread starter):Does anybody know the takeoff angle of attack for a CRJ-700? Figure for MTOW. Thanks!

 Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 3):Just start a 3 degree per sec smooth rotation at Vr till you are in the air. There is prolly some sorta of limit to prevent a tail strike...... but at 3 degrees per sec.... that plane will not need 5 secs to rotate.

The OP needs to clarify if he really wants the angle of attack or the body angle. There is no real way to measure the angle of attack.

I am almost positive there is no limiter to prevent a tail strike. In reality you don't want to keep the pitch up until you come off the ground. That's how you get tailstrikes.

 ANITIX87 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 3352 posts, RR: 12 Reply 5, posted Sun Jun 15 2008 09:10:02 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 13715 times:

 Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 3):Just start a 3 degree per sec smooth rotation at Vr till you are in the air.

Is this what real pilots try to do? Is there any way to ensure you're lifting off at 3 degrees per second? It seems like it would be quite easy to yank on the stick a little too hard.

TIS

 www.stellaryear.com: Canon EOS 50D, Canon EOS 5DMkII, Sigma 50mm 1.4, Canon 24-70 2.8L II, Canon 100mm 2.8L, Canon 100-4
 PhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted Sun Jun 15 2008 09:13:48 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 13712 times:

 Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 5):Is this what real pilots try to do?

Very easy to do....one potato, two potato, three potato. On the 744, at MTOW you would even want to do it at about 2 degrees/second.

 2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8957 posts, RR: 56 Reply 7, posted Sun Jun 15 2008 09:22:35 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 13703 times:

 Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 4):The OP needs to clarify if he really wants the angle of attack or the body angle.

Agreed. The two terms are often....and mistakenly....used interchangeably.

2H4

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 Tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12710 posts, RR: 78 Reply 8, posted Sun Jun 15 2008 09:47:40 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 13694 times:

 Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 4):The OP needs to clarify if he really wants the angle of attack or the body angle. There is no real way to measure the angle of attack.

Doesn't a CRJ have an AoA meter? All the Boeing's I've ever worked on do.

Tom.

 PhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted Sun Jun 15 2008 09:54:41 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 13691 times:

 Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 8):Doesn't a CRJ have an AoA meter? All the Boeing's I've ever worked on do. Tom

I am sure it does, just like any Boeing or Airbus. However, in the cockpit, there is no AOA readout at all.

 Flyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted Sun Jun 15 2008 10:11:28 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 13682 times:

 Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 9):Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 8): Doesn't a CRJ have an AoA meter? All the Boeing's I've ever worked on do. Tom I am sure it does, just like any Boeing or Airbus. However, in the cockpit, there is no AOA readout at all.

Strangely enough, the occasional CRJ does have AoA readout information. We have a couple birds in our fleet that were meant for another carrier (not sure who) that have digital readouts of the left and right AoA sensors as well as what current AoA will activate the stall protection system. Its kind of neat.

I can't speak for the CRJ-700, but in the -200 (which admittedly will be very different due to our lack of leading edge devices).... AoA is in the 2-4 degree range after takeoff, momentarily reaching 6-7 degrees during flap retraction. Of course, this depends on weight, takeoff flap setting, etc.

 AAH732UAL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted Sun Jun 15 2008 11:05:03 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 13662 times:

 There is also a tail strike guard on the -700 and -900 IIRC.
 Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17654 posts, RR: 65 Reply 12, posted Sun Jun 15 2008 16:31:50 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 13579 times:

 Whether it has an AoA meter in the cockpit or not is not really relevant since pilots don't use it for this kind of thing. They have a target speed and they use that. The deck angle and AoA are dependent on the target speed, the take off weight, air density...
 "There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 Tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12710 posts, RR: 78 Reply 13, posted Sun Jun 15 2008 20:12:03 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 13516 times:

 Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):Whether it has an AoA meter in the cockpit or not is not really relevant since pilots don't use it for this kind of thing.

It may be irrelevant to the flight crew but it's really relevant to this:

 Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 4):There is no real way to measure the angle of attack.

Even if it's not displayed on the flight deck, it's probably on the DFDR.

Tom.

 PhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted Sun Jun 15 2008 20:58:15 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 13507 times:

 Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 13): Even if it's not displayed on the flight deck, it's probably on the DFDR.

So, how is the crew supposed to obtain this information in "real time"????

Don't get me wrong, I flew AOA in the military and it's great. I wish it were available in the aircraft I fly, but it's not. So, you do without....

[Edited 2008-06-15 21:00:29]

 Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17654 posts, RR: 65 Reply 15, posted Sun Jun 15 2008 21:16:26 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 13499 times:

 Fair enough Tdscanuck.
 "There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 Tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12710 posts, RR: 78 Reply 16, posted Mon Jun 16 2008 17:56:31 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 13345 times:

 Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 14): So, how is the crew supposed to obtain this information in "real time"????

They're not. I brought up the topic of the AoA meter solely as a counter to the argument that there was no way to measure AoA. There certainly is a way to measure it, and it's done on lots of aircraft all the time. It's useless to the flight crew (in the raw form) so most aircraft don't display it to them.

There are, literally, thousands of parameters that are measured and recorded by the aircraft that aren't visible to the flight crew in normal operation. AoA is hardly unique in that aspect.

Tom.

 PhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted Mon Jun 16 2008 20:02:38 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 13326 times:

 Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 16):They're not. I brought up the topic of the AoA meter solely as a counter to the argument that there was no way to measure AoA. There certainly is a way to measure it, and it's done on lots of aircraft all the time. It's useless to the flight crew (in the raw form) so most aircraft don't display it to them

My point is it's not useless. After flying AOA in the military and then coming to the commercial side I was amazed there was no AOA indication available to the crew. On the 744, you do have it when you configure and get the "moustache" but that's only the max energy line, it's not an AOA display. In reality, it gives you the AOA crit, but nothing more.

I do realise what the inputs into the DFDR are and know that AOA is measured......

 SLUAviator From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 357 posts, RR: 3 Reply 18, posted Tue Jun 17 2008 13:42:52 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 13218 times:

 In the -700, we rotate at 3 degrees/sec right into the flight director. The flight director is calculated for us by the plane based on temp, wind, weight, and whole bunch of other factors. There is a tail skid on the 700s and 900s. Bombardier figured out that it would not be used if you rotate properly. You have to WAY over rotate to bump your butt on the runway with those guys! In fact, I remember something in ground school about the newest 700/900s are going to have the tail skid eliminated entirely, but don't quote me on that.
 What do I know? I just fly 'em.......
 2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8957 posts, RR: 56 Reply 19, posted Tue Jun 17 2008 14:00:11 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 13211 times:

 Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 17):My point is it's not useless. After flying AOA in the military and then coming to the commercial side I was amazed there was no AOA indication available to the crew.

My Aero instructor was of the opinion that each and every airplane should come equipped with an AOA indicator and a stall margin indicator.

 Quoting SLUAviator (Reply 18):You have to WAY over rotate to bump your butt on the runway with those guys!

Is a tailstrike more likely during takeoff or during landing? Landing in gusty crosswinds and recovering from a bounce, for example.

2H4

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 Skyslave From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 44 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted Wed Jun 18 2008 07:34:56 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 13137 times:

I work for a regional airline flying the -200 model, and we recently got an FOM revision saying that we have to click the flight director off right before takeoff. Why? I have no friggin clue. Now we just pitch up to about 10 degrees. And to add to the rest of the conversation... just pull up genltly when you want to take off. There is no AoA indication, but you dont need one... there is a red bar at the bottom of the speed tape, which I like to refer to as "the no zone". Keep it out of that area, and you're flyin' high, ace.

 Skyslave From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 44 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted Wed Jun 18 2008 07:41:10 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 13131 times:

Either take off or landing lends its self to a tail strike. If you're mr. cool guy hot shot, and yank on the yoke during rotation, you can get a tail strike. Now for landing, I noticed if the pilot is low on airspeed over the threshold, the aircraft will sink when you dont want it to, leading to the pilot pitching up even more in order to not slam it on the runway. This will lead to a very nose high attitude, and very near the stall region. I've never seen it happen, but I can see the potential for it.

 Flyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted Wed Jun 18 2008 08:57:05 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 13123 times:

 Quoting Skyslave (Reply 20):I work for a regional airline flying the -200 model, and we recently got an FOM revision saying that we have to click the flight director off right before takeoff. Why? I have no friggin clue.

There have been crashes recently of the CRJ-200/Challenger relating to excessive rotation rates and/or target pitch attitudes by the pilots causing a stall. This is further worsened when any type of contamination is present on the wing and was not properly removed. I'm guessing your FOM revision also included changes to de-icing procedures and wing anti-ice usage.

Really the best idea would've been to teach every pilot how to properly rotate a CRJ, but instead many airlines have chosen to instead limit pitch angle on departure to 10 degrees instead of the flight director commanded 15 degrees.

 AAH732UAL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted Wed Jun 18 2008 09:10:03 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 13111 times:

 Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 22): Really the best idea would've been to teach every pilot how to properly rotate a CRJ, but instead many airlines have chosen to instead limit pitch angle on departure to 10 degrees instead of the flight director commanded 15 degrees.

O yeah? That is strange..... I would think Bombardier would know the plane better then some airline that requires a CRJ transition course before even hiring the pilot to cut down on sim time

 Flyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted Wed Jun 18 2008 09:29:16 UTC (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 13099 times:

 Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 23):O yeah? That is strange..... I would think Bombardier would know the plane better then some airline that requires a CRJ transition course before even hiring the pilot to cut down on sim time Yeah sure

Yeah, you know, I can't say I'm the expert on the whole AD and its background, but thats how it was explained to me.

I'm not even going to touch the whole CRJ transition course thing....

 25 SLUAviator : You know what, we just got something similar for our 200s as well! Before we'd click the flight director which went way up to the TO/TO position and
 26 Alias1024 : It's certainly an annoying procedure. Nobody has managed to give me a satisfactory answer for why the FD can't be set at the gate before pushback. Do
 27 SLUAviator : When you click the flight director before takeoff, it is the final position check for the FMS from the GPS. They sync up and whatever your GPS has is
 28 Alias1024 : That's why the engineers who built the box put a RWY UPDATE function on the legs page. Once lined up on the runway, the captain can very easily push
 29 AAH732UAL : Is that not already mandated for RNAV SIDs anyway. I know its for DME/DME and DME/DME/IRU FMS anyway. I really didn't have a firm answer if GPS MMRs
 30 PhilSquares : I suggest you all need to go back and re-read your FCOMS or FOM. You are all wrong about the way the FMS updates the position on takeoff. With GPS or
 31 Alias1024 : This is why pushing the RWY UPDATE will work on the CRJ, assuming you have programmed the departure runway into the FMS. RWY UPDATE takes a new snaps
 32 411A : "Tis pretty basic stuff, Phil. I am astonished about so many misconceptions from our younger airline pilot group. Perhaps they are too lazy to actuall
 33 AAH732UAL : I am not a CRJ pilot guys... I was just asking a question from what I was told
 34 CHQIAH : Our CRJ fleet has AOA
 35 EMBQA : "What's an AOA vane..? signed the Embraer Ejet's...
 36 CHQIAH : Angle of attack. The AOA is the angle between the chordline of the wing and the relative wind and it pretty much looks like a very small wing that mo
 37 EMBQA : Aaaah yes.. I know that. The Embraer Ejets don't have them. They don't even have Pitot Probes. They use something called a Smart Probe. No pitot pres
 38 AirWillie6475 : I'm reading through systems right now, particularly flight controls. Why does the CRJ have the stab trim disconnect on the yoke close to the flight di
 39 Alias1024 : Not really an issue. The stab trim disconnect is far enough out of the way that you have to be trying to hit it.
 40 CosmicCruiser : Hey PhilSquares, We have the same "moustache" on the -11, PLI Pitch Limit Indicator but as they begin the installation of the HUD/EVS in the MD-11/-1
 41 9VSIO : I've seen it on a Cessna....pilot was v v slow and in a nose high attitude, applied power to go around, but didn't catch the pitch up caused by addin
 42 LY744 : So we've talked about rotation rates and angles on T/O, now I have a question for the jet pilots: When you are the Pilot Flying on take off, and it's
 43 Flyf15 : At the commencement of the rotation, I am almost entirely looking outside... driving the plane down the runway. As the nose lifts off the ground, I d
 44 CRJ900 : Slightly off topic, but how is the CRJ cockpit as a workplace (office)? Does it feel almost as spacious as MD80, A320 and B737 cockpits? With more and
 45 Stillageek : I've only flown the CRJ700 but I have jumpseated in MD80s, ERJ145s and 737s. The CRJ IMHO is more comfy than the MD80 and the ERJ145. The 80 is more a
 46 EssentialPowr : 1. I see a lot of RJs with a flare like a 172... Note: that is not a good thing in the big leagues, as that can be a tail stike. 2. I see a lot of cro
 47 Alias1024 : I flew with a captain a few months ago that was trying so hard for soft landings that he got the stick shaker during the flare not once, but twice du
 48 CosmicCruiser : Like Flyf15 said we are looking outside and as we rotate you intitially rotate the PFD up into your field of vision. This is somewhere around liftoff
 49 Greasemonkey : You are correct. There is also an STC that is coming out to eliminate them from the current fleet. We always have pilots tell us that they know someo
 50 EssentialPowr : About 6 months ago, I dismantled some RJ pilot's comments about a CRJ 700 not having enough wing....(because the FADECs were great ???) The rotation,
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