Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Aerobatics With Airliners?  
User currently offlineBlackened From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (13 years 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4779 times:

Does anybody know what kind of manoevers there have been with big airliners maybe during test flights or airshows? I have heard somewhere that a 747 did a looping once and that another 747 broke the sound barrier in a very fast descent.

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRyu2 From Taiwan, joined Aug 2002, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (13 years 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4546 times:

The 707 (or its predecessor) was barrel rolled during an early demonstration flight.

User currently offlineKonaB777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (13 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4496 times:

It was a DC8 that broke the sound barrier in a dive.

Besides, doing aerobatics in an airliner is like using an SUV for stunt racing...need I say more?


User currently offlineTwotterwrench From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (13 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4490 times:

This topic has been EXTENSIVELY discussed in here before... and not all that long ago. And, yes, the 707 story is true...it was a publicity stunt.

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (13 years 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4467 times:

I've heard about the B707 story.Its true.
No idea about the B747 story.
regds
HAWK.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29799 posts, RR: 58
Reply 5, posted (13 years 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4398 times:

I suppose that we can count Frank Tallman taking a DC-7 around the pylons at Reno in the 50's or 60's as an aerobatic manuver.

I think he got third.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineEGNV From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 171 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (13 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4363 times:

If anyone is english, call in to a magazine shop and look through the Airbus special of Airliner World...

I think an A300 seems to be pitched up at about 60 degrees!


User currently offlineGeebar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (13 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4318 times:

I have a university lecturer that claims to have experienced barrel rolls in a 707. It was a night near Melbourne

I tend to have different thoughts about breking the sound barrier in a DC-8. We were taught that a 727 as the example that having cruise capabilities for planning purposes of Mach 0.84, even if this aircraft were put into a decent directly vertical, with all thrust levers firwalledn the aircrfat would still not break the sound barrier. This is due to the air resistance and drag created by such an aircraft. When i thought about it it made sense. Huge amounts of thrust are required to break the sound barrier (the use of afterburner and four turbojet engines along with that superaerodynamic shape for the Concorde).

Would this DC-8 still be in one piece after breking the sound barrier. The aircraft would be past the strucural limits of Vmo and Vne and i would suggest breking up in flight

This is just what i think and may not be correct. Im simply trying to give quite a valid idea and am not criticisizing anyone elses response to the question

Regards,
Geebar


User currently offlineMusang From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2001, 864 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (13 years 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4298 times:

I would think that any jet transport could be pursuaded to transgress the sound barrier if dived steep enough.

It is said that the PSA 146 which nosedived into the ground went supersonic, and the FDR info implied that nothing came off it before impact.

Theres an autobiography by an former airline pilot from the States who for reasons I can't remember found himself being checked out on Concorde by Air France. He claims they barrel rolled it.

A barrel roll however is a one g maneouvre if properly executed and just about any aircraft could be coaxed through one in the right hands. Not mine!

Regards - Musang


User currently offlineMax Power From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (13 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4297 times:

Geebar you are correct in saying you may be incorrect..Musang is correct, and yes the 727 will have no problem going sonic as you describe. Even the man that holds the longest free fall a Air force Col. forget his name went sonic when he jumped from a balloon a number of years ago from near 60,000 feet or higher. Max

User currently offlineBlackened From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4271 times:

I think a 747 breaking the sound barrier is a confirmed fact. They did that during test flights.

User currently offlineGeebar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4268 times:

I THINK WE MAY HAVE TO AGREE TO DISAGREE ON THIS ONE.

I am going to investigate this at uni with my lecturers today and i will get back to you all on what i find out.

Cheers,
Geebar


User currently offlineJetpilot500 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4259 times:

All of Dassault Falcon Jets have been flight tested beyond Mach 1.

A B-747 went supersonic over the North Pacific during a high altitude upset, they did recover. I think it may have been Flying Tigers.

JetPilot500


User currently offlineRC Pilot From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4257 times:

during the test flight i know they took it up to .99 mach

User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6449 posts, RR: 54
Reply 14, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4251 times:

A Focke-Wulff fw-200 four engined airliner made a loop at an airshow in Aalborg, Denmark in 1937. DDL (Danish Airlines - later part of SAS) promptly bought two of them.


Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineCarioca Canuck From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4249 times:

MaxPower.....

The guy in question jumped from 110,000 feet.


User currently offlinePmk From United States of America, joined May 1999, 664 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4250 times:

1. A 747SP during a CAT did exceed the sound barrier, however the wings were bent up at a seven degree angle. The aircraft was recertified and flew for about 5 more years. It is currently at Las Vegas, McCarran waiting to be bought.

2.The 707 and Concorde were NOT barrel rolled! A barrel is a multi G maneuver. The maneuver performed in both cases is called a schondel(sp)roll. It is a 1 G maneuver and is not damaging to an airframe if the 1G limit is not exceeded.

Peter


User currently offlineGeebar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4239 times:

Another consideration when testing these aircraft at Mach 0.99 and the like is the fact that as the airflow over the wing will have accelerated and be beyond the speed of sound bringing a shock wave and massive drag penalties into the equation. This has to do with the critical Mach number (Mcrit) for the aircraft

User currently offlineIndianGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4240 times:

A 747SP of China Airlines went into a steep dive and went supersonic while on a scheduled flight into LAX. The aircraft stayed intact though the wings were badly bent, and part of the tail structure was damaged.

User currently offlineMusang From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2001, 864 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4224 times:

Pmk - a chandelle is a max performance climbing turn combined with a 180 degree change of direction, speed starting at Va and reducing to just above Vs when the turn is complete. (See Kershner's Advanced Pilot's Manual, fifth edition, Iowa State University Press. Page 251)

It was included in the FAA commercial pilot checkride as a co-ordination/planning exercise.

In all my years I've never heard of a "chandelle roll", as you describe it.

Can't find a definition of Barrel Roll at this moment, but all the descriptions of the Dash 80 stunt over Seattle I ever read describe it as a barrel roll, and I'm convinced it is a 1 g maneouvre if done properly.

Regards - Musang


User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6449 posts, RR: 54
Reply 20, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4232 times:

IndianGuy wrote: ...747SP of China Airlines... supersonic... part of the tail structure was damaged.

Dear IndianGuy, you are really not exaggerating.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy Half of the tail was missing!!!

Rgds, Preben Norholm




Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8114 posts, RR: 53
Reply 21, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4208 times:

I have seen a TV interview with the 707 test pilot who did the roll, he described it himself as a Chandelle and said it was a 1g maneouvre.

Apparently the 744 has been taken through the sound barrier in a shallow dive. Some mild vibration was noted.

A DC8 was definitely taken through the sound barrier, in a shallow dive starting at FL410. The aircraft was later delivered to a customer.

Rumour has it the 777 was rolled during test flights.

A LH crew did a roll in a 707 during pre-delivery training. Obviously lacking the skill of the Boeing test pilot above, they did it a second time and the aircraft broke up. While most of LH's training was done in Arizona, I have a feeling this accident happened over Germany. Early 60s.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineLapa_saab340 From Spain, joined Aug 2001, 390 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4185 times:

Cedarjet
The maneuver called 'chandelle' was correctly described by Musang. Perhaps Boeing's test pilot "Tex" Johnston was also performing chandelles the day he rolled the 707 prototype, or perhaps he was referring to another flight. But the maneuver in question was a 1G roll, performed over some stadium (I forgot which now  Smile).


User currently offlineTwotterwrench From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (13 years 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4181 times:

a Barrell roll properly performed is a 1g manuever. I have done them in 150 aerobats for christs sake. it's slow, but it gets there... tex most certainly did perform a very well executed barrell roll.

User currently offlinePmk From United States of America, joined May 1999, 664 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (13 years 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4179 times:

Not to start an argument but Johnson said it was a Chandelle, even had to explain to management what he did. Bob Hoover called the same maneuver a Chandelle. Do we need to call General Yeager for a ruling?

Peter


25 Doug_or : i think we may. I have perfoemed many a chandelle, as par the instructions of my instructors and my schools specifications. Max bank angle in this man
26 Southflite : I haven't heard that LH roll-crash story before, but a Braniff B707-200 (N7071) did crash during test flights in October 1959 - not as a result of bar
27 HeavyJet : The maneuver "Tex" Johnson performed was, without a doubt, a barrel roll. In a barrel roll, the aircraft rolls around it's longitudinal axis as if it
28 EDR 374 : Is it possible that a 747 did a looping? I don't think so.
29 Staffan : I've heard of a 747 in a flat spin, the tail suffered heavy damage, anyone else heard of this? Staffan
30 Lehpron : If a 747 can break the sound barrier, was it the point of the SC?
31 Musang : The famous photo taken from the Dash-80 cabin during the "maneouvre" by an engineer clearly shows that the aircraft is inverted. By definition a chand
32 BadAsses : A DC-9-21 attempted a barrel-roll on a ferry-flight once, but the pilots did a lousy job, and the contents of the lav's was splattered all over the wa
33 FBU 4EVER! : The DC-9 incident referred to,did in fact take place.However,it wasn't discovered before the QAR (Quick Access Recorder) was examined! The Captain was
34 Mac : It was a long time ago, but if my memory serves me correctly, the Boing prototype was on a promotional/public relations/demonstration flight over lak
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Aerobatics With Airliners?
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
Are Airliners Equipped With Radar? posted Sat Sep 20 2003 23:07:25 by B1C17L1011
Any Airliners With Stearable Main Gear? posted Tue Sep 3 2002 03:51:26 by Planelover
A&P Jobs With USAir In PHL posted Tue Nov 14 2006 08:58:20 by MXSUP
Stored/Parked Aircraft With Flaps Extended? posted Mon Nov 13 2006 04:59:56 by Warreng24
Routes And A/c Fully Loaded With Fuel. posted Mon Nov 6 2006 06:17:47 by Mirrodie
Is Re-engining A 747-400 With Trent 500s Possible? posted Sat Nov 4 2006 22:59:28 by LTU932
Why No Retractable Gear On Aerobatics Planes? posted Thu Nov 2 2006 20:54:17 by QFA380
Delta's 777-200 Going With Trents? posted Sat Oct 28 2006 00:11:31 by MD11Fanatic
Heavy Take-off With Tailwind posted Fri Oct 27 2006 20:02:52 by BA84
Whats Wrong With This Photo Lockheed C121C posted Fri Oct 13 2006 01:18:53 by Airfoilsguy

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format