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Airbus Aileron Setting When Parked?  
User currently offlineCHQIAH From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 71 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4311 times:

My usual lunchbreak consists of throwing in some chew and driving to RWY 15L/R for my daily takeoff spotting of KLM and Lufthansa 744's. But the other day while driving past Term A to get to my spot I noticed a NWA 319 with both left and right ailerons simultaneously in the up position. Since I am not up to par on my Airbus A&P I was wondering why the setting, or if not a setting is this the same reaction of flight controls as the MD-80 (i.e. the elevator sys) with hyd sys off and wind variations on ground? Very strange sight, we don't have many Airbus a/c here and I have never seen a Boeing or RJ do this.


If you fly fast enough, the sun never sets
12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4296 times:

Hydraulics were most likely off. Since they are FBW, there is no physical connection between the L and R side

[Edited 2008-06-30 14:41:57]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineCHQIAH From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4278 times:

Yeah the FBW is what I figured, it was just a very intersting sight.


If you fly fast enough, the sun never sets
User currently offlineGST From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 930 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4270 times:

If anything I would have thought they would both be in the down position with hydraulics off, due to their weight. Are A319 ailerons counterbalanced anyone?

User currently offlineCHQIAH From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4267 times:

Well, this is a complete left field guess, but throwing in the weight factor, could it have been an mx check with the ailerons not coinciding from commands in the cockpit since it is FBW?


If you fly fast enough, the sun never sets
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21088 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4195 times:



Quoting GST (Reply 3):
If anything I would have thought they would both be in the down position with hydraulics off, due to their weight.

Down is the standard position for both ailerons when the hydraulics are off, due to the weight of the surfaces as you said. Though I've never seen it happn, if both were up it's likely that they were testing the hydraulic system to ensure sufficient pressure to both ailerons.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3930 posts, RR: 34
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4161 times:



Quoting CHQIAH (Reply 4):
could it have been an mx check with the ailerons not coinciding from commands in the cockpit since it is FBW?

I cannot think of any way I could make the ailerons move both up. I could try by pressurising only one hyd system and moving the left aileron up. Then turning it off and pressurising another system and moving the right aileron up, and hoping the left was still up. But there is no routine check for it. It would be playing. All aileron movements are controlled by the sidestick.


User currently offlineBuckFifty From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1316 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4155 times:

I think it's almost impossible to have both ailerons in the up position. Like TristarSteve was saying, I can't think of any scenarios where both ailerons will end up in the up position, hyd's on or off. Even during a maintenance check, I don't think it is possible...

Are you sure it's in the up position? Or where they both facing downwards?


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4154 times:

Was there a strong wind blowing at the time?
regds
MEL.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineBoeing767mech From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1021 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4109 times:



Quoting BuckFifty (Reply 7):
I think it's almost impossible to have both ailerons in the up position. Like TristarSteve was saying, I can't think of any scenarios where both ailerons will end up in the up position, hyd's on or off. Even during a maintenance check, I don't think it is possible...

It's not a airbus, but I have seen both outboard ailerons trailing edge up at the same time. Granted they where screaming for help, considering the next sounds was the sound of the wing getting hacked off. So the hyd. pressure has been 0psi for months. But the PCU's and all the cables are still in the airframe.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/boeing767mech/100_3422.jpg


The joy of scrapping a airplane is you see it do things you would never see.

David



Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
User currently offlineCHQIAH From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4104 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 8):
Was there a strong wind blowing at the time?
regds
MEL.

Winds were just as calm as they could be. I'm bringing my camera for the next few days in hopes MAYBE I will see it again. Then of course I will snap it and post it. But they were at about a 60-70deg angle up.



If you fly fast enough, the sun never sets
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3978 times:



Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 6):
I cannot think of any way I could make the ailerons move both up. I could try by pressurising only one hyd system and moving the left aileron up.



Quoting BuckFifty (Reply 7):
I think it's almost impossible to have both ailerons in the up position. Like TristarSteve was saying, I can't think of any scenarios where both ailerons will end up in the up position, hyd's on or off. Even during a maintenance check, I don't think it is possible...

I don't know about the A-300, but I can make all four ailerons go up or down on an L-1011 by using the "roll disconnect" handle. If the "roll disconnect" handle is pulled with power on all four aileron servos turn the captains control wheel to left and turn the first officers to the right and all four ailerons will go up. Reverse the direction of the control wheels and all four ailerons will go down. This is possible because there are bungees built into the system that prevent jams and in this scenario they would extend or compress just like there was a jam.

If there is an actual jam sensors on the bungees would tell the crew which servos to shut down. If the jam is in the right wing the captain would shut down the right hand inboard and outboard aileron servos and control the aircraft using the two left hand ailerons. If the jam was in the left wing the first officer would have control using the right wing ailerons after the left hand servos were shut down.

Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 9):
It's not a airbus, but I have seen both outboard ailerons trailing edge up at the same time. Granted they where screaming for help, considering the next sounds was the sound of the wing getting hacked off. So the hyd. pressure has been 0psi for months. But the PCU's and all the cables are still in the airframe.

In the pictures there appears to be counter weights forward of the aileron hinge line. So with no hydraulic power the weights would make the nose of the aileron go down and the trailing edge go up, just like in the picture.


User currently offlineWirelock From Spain, joined Sep 2007, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3863 times:



Quoting CHQIAH (Reply 10):
Winds were just as calm as they could be. I'm bringing my camera for the next few days in hopes MAYBE I will see it again. Then of course I will snap it and post it. But they were at about a 60-70deg angle up.

It is indeed strange that both ailerons were in that position. On new A320 when the mounts and mount bolts are new the aileron will stay in the neutral position even with gravity acting on it.
i need to investigate more but it could be possible that both ailerons could be in the up position during the freeplay checks. these are done through the MCDU and the ELAC are moving the aileron(no input from sidestick). however it is only checking 1 side at a time. next time im due to do this check i'll stand outside and watch.
because the ailerons have 2 servo actuators attached to each aileron the force needed to put it in the up position would need to be from HYD or from MX and then sticking a rag in there to hold the ailerons up. The wind alone i dont think would be able to do it


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