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777 @ LGA - Is It Possible?  
User currently offlineJcchristie From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 39 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7038 times:

I realize that it would be difficult for a triple seven to use the gates at LGA. But could it take off on those runways, are they long enough?

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4125 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7012 times:

With very little fuel and passengers on full flaps and full power the answer is yes. They have 767-300's leave from LGA so I don't think that it such a stretch for a B777 to do the same.

[Edited 2008-08-18 14:52:15]


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7018 times:

With a light load, yes.


Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineLHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6995 times:

I don't think it would be a problem, considering L1011's and DC10's have used LGA.

User currently offlineJcchristie From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6895 times:

yeah and they used to have 767-400's there too.

User currently offlineLGAtoIND From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 490 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6868 times:

With a light load yes, the 777 can take off on LGA's 7000 ft runways. The problem is not the runway length, however it is that the Port Authority/FAA have restricted LGA to all planes larger than a 767-400 due to the strain that the weight puts on the piers and the larger length of the plane's wingspan.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6825 times:



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 3):
I don't think it would be a problem, considering L1011's and DC10's have used LGA.

The L1011-1 and DC-10-10 were specifically designed to be able to operate at LGA.


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However I think they were limited to only a few gates due to the congested ramp area.. The 777's approximate 50 ft greater wingspan would likely be a serious problem. LGA also has weight limits due to portions of the runways being suspended on pylons over the water. Even the lightest non-ER 777-200 has an empty weight 25% greater than the L1011-1 and DC-10-10. That could well be a another problem.


User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4743 posts, RR: 45
Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6782 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
The L1011-1 and DC-10-10 were specifically designed to be able to operate at LGA.

Damn what I would give to see a D10 or L10 coming round the bend on an expressway approach!!!!



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16820 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6759 times:

Remember that part of one runway is actually a pier, the weight and size of the landing dictate whether or not an aircraft can operate from LGA.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineN104UA From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 902 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6732 times:

Is there a noise ordinance in LGA with how close the city is to the airport


"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16820 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6708 times:



Quoting N104UA (Reply 9):
Is there a noise ordinance in LGA with how close the city is to the airport

The airport is in the City, Queens. The City of New York is more than just Manhattan, there's Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens and Staten Island.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineN104UA From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 902 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6669 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 10):
The airport is in the City, Queens. The City of New York is more than just Manhattan, there's Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens and Staten Island.

I know about the burrows I am in NYC 4 times a year and it is right on the river and surrounded by many burrows



"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16820 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6597 times:

Quoting N104UA (Reply 11):
I know about the burrows I am in NYC 4 times a year and it is right on the river and surrounded by many burrows

Borough, I was born in the forgotten borough (Staten Island). There's not different rules in different Boroughs, what goes for the residents of Manhattan goes for the residents of the other four boroughs. Keep in mind that some of the boroughs like Queens have a high population concentrations than Manhattan, Manhattan is the 3rd most populated Borough (barely edging out the Bronx). Brooklyn and Queens is where they biggest chunk of population of the City of New York reside.

Generally no matter where the airport if flying over a populated area could be avoided they will route arrivals departures that way, at Newark Airport aircraft that depart runway 4L will make a very sharp left turn for noise abatement. They try to avoid departing over populated areas which is generally when aircraft noise is at it's highest decibels, aircraft departing Newark Airport make a sharp left bank to climb out over Port Newark and the Arthur Kill between Staten Island and New Jersey which is a highly industrialized area and sparsely populated.

[Edited 2008-08-18 16:07:03]


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineFLFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6485 times:

I use to fly DL ATL-LGA on the 1011 and they would put 300 pax on those. I was surprised that a 777 would be that much (25%) heavier.

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16820 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6427 times:

The L-1011 was designed with LGA in mind as per their largest customers Eastern and Delta, I believe the DC-10-10 was also in the running for Eastern and Delta before their L-1011 orders thus the DC-10-10 was also designed with LGA's limitations in mind during design.

IIRC Eastern had to wait a while to get their A300s certified to operate from LGA, the Port Authority reinforced their pier runway pilings in order to accommodated the Eastern A300s. Eastern wanted to operate the A300s on their BOS-LGA-DCA shuttle, the Port Authority was able to accommodate the A300s through reinforcing the piers. DCA for whatever reasons refused to allow Eastern to operate the A300 to that airport.

Something about the A300s landing gear meant that the force of the landings were not as evenly distributed as the L-1011 and DC-10-10s, more of the force of the A300 landing was focused onto a smaller area.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4743 posts, RR: 45
Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6421 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 12):
at Newark Airport aircraft that depart runway 4L will make a very sharp left turn for noise abatement.

Don't aircraft departing 4L actually make a RIGHT turn?



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16820 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6411 times:



Quoting FLFlyer (Reply 13):
I use to fly DL ATL-LGA on the 1011 and they would put 300 pax on those.

I flew on a Eastern Airlines L-1011 from LGA-MIA during Christmas 1989, we departed during a pretty good snow storm which caused for a little nervousness during departure.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8284 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6320 times:
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The 777 is a monster, DC-10 or L-1011 opertating at LGA had a limit of about 400K pounds. Since the flights were to Florida or ORD mostly, they didn't carry the full load for LAX or SFO. LGA has a 1500 mile limit.

User currently offlineTinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 971 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6186 times:



Quoting Brilondon (Reply 1):
With very little fuel and passengers on full flaps and full power the answer is yes. They have 767-300's leave from LGA so I don't think that it such a stretch for a B777 to do the same

Full power yes, but I would think full flaps is going to add much more drag than lift. Perhaps a higher than normal take-off flap setting but I don't know about full. Any 777 drivers care to shed some light on this?



"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineQantas744ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1286 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6103 times:



Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 18):
Full power yes, but I would think full flaps is going to add much more drag than lift. Perhaps a higher than normal take-off flap setting but I don't know about full. Any 777 drivers care to shed some light on this?

Flap detents on the 777 are 1, 5, 15, 20, 25, 30

Available for T/O are 5, and 15 but this depends on airline, weight, runway length, weather, etc. The 772's will use flaps 5 most of the time and most 773 operators will use flaps 15.

Flaps 5 will result in longer T/O roll, faster T/O speed but better initial climb rate with less drag.

Flaps 15 will result in shorter T/O roll, slower T/O speed but slower initial climb rate with more drag.

For landing flaps 25, or 30. most operators use 30 but with noise abatement regulations and conditions allowing it some will use 25. Simply depends on airline SOP and conditions.

Leo  Smile



Happiness is V1 in Lagos
User currently offline71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3060 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5966 times:

We had a MIA-LAX AA 777 divert to MSY last year and when they left, they took off from the 7,000 foot runway 1. Don't know the passenger or cargo load but it flew the 4 hours to LAX.


The good old days: Delta L-1011s at MSY
User currently offlineDC8FanJet From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5905 times:

I think the issue was distance between the gear for LGA's piers. DC-10 & L1011 were
designed specifically to meet the restrictions. Also, the shorter flights held down
take-off weight.

777 wouldn't have any noise issues, it's pretty quiet even by comparison to the
DC-10/L1011's.


User currently offlineUPS757Pilot From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5812 times:



Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 19):

What about Flaps 20 for T/O? We can do it in the 757/767.


User currently offlineQantas744ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1286 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5658 times:



Quoting UPS757Pilot (Reply 22):
What about Flaps 20 for T/O? We can do it in the 757/767.

Not a T/O setting on the 777.

Leo



Happiness is V1 in Lagos
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17000 posts, RR: 67
Reply 24, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5624 times:



Quoting FLFlyer (Reply 13):
I use to fly DL ATL-LGA on the 1011 and they would put 300 pax on those. I was surprised that a 777 would be that much (25%) heavier.

Well, the 777 can go a tad further.  Wink



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
25 OPNLguy : Back in the early 1980s when we (Air Florida) had our brand-stinkin' new 727-200s with the -17R engined, the aircraft's 205,000 max takeoff weight wa
26 Jetstar : I read many years ago that when Airbus was designing the A-300, the Port Authority send a letter of the requirements for the landing gear spacing tha
27 9VSRH : I just watched a JustPlanes video of the 777-200ER (Austrian, VIE-KUL-SYD and back. The 777 took off from runway 07 at YSSY and used flap 20 for take
28 AAH732UAL : Well........... UA lands 777s at OGG. IIRC OGG is the limit for the 777 and 767 in regards to UA SOPs. OGG is about 6,000....... so LGA being 1000+ f
29 CX flyboy : yes Flaps 20 is indeed an approved takeoff setting for the 777. I have used it a number of times off runways when we have been heavy or short runways
30 Post contains links 71Zulu : http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0808/00289AD.PDF Runways at LGA are 7001 and 7003 feet.
31 Starlionblue : Yeah but they're surrounded by NIMBYs. I guess you could try to clear them with the jetblast.
32 YULYMX : B777 from LGA could do a 4-5 hours flight with fuel load... no more
33 Moose135 : Which would fit in well with LGA's perimeter rule...but certainly a waste of the aircraft's capabilities.
34 Starlionblue : Not if LGA were in Japan.
35 Moose135 : But why send one 777 when you can send 126 RJs?
36 Starlionblue : I didn't want to say it myself. Jokes aside it is awful. Not even for the wastefulness. More for the absence of resilience in a market downturn...
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