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Slowest Landing Speed For A Jet Aircraft  
User currently offlineNaritaflyer From Japan, joined Apr 2006, 549 posts, RR: 1
Posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 24856 times:

What's the slowest speed at which a jet aircraft can safely land? I think the normal landing speed is 140 knots? Can it be slower?

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline767driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 24864 times:

Much slower....an empty 757 lands at around 110kts

User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 24812 times:



Quoting Naritaflyer (Thread starter):
What's the slowest speed at which a jet aircraft can safely land? I think the normal landing speed is 140 knots?

Harrier and the F-35B can land at zero (0) knots.


User currently offlinePeachAir From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 365 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 24719 times:

Depends on the type of jet.

The Cessna Citation (500/501/550/560) etc all the straight wing aircraft can land at 110kts.

Also - when flying in the jumpseat on Transbrasil 767-200 (back in 1997) from GRU to GIG we approached the GIG airport at 129kts. (We also use 5 degrees flaps for tkeoff - something we dont do here in the USA)

THX


User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8968 posts, RR: 76
Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 24642 times:
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Quoting Naritaflyer (Thread starter):

An empty MD11 is pretty close to that 140. maybe 138 or so. but with MLAW we approach with 173 knots  Wink

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineAAH732UAL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 24632 times:

Heck IIRC the A330 has a Vref that can get as low as like 100kts I think.

User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3148 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 24623 times:

Vref on the 170 can get down below 110 when it's light with flaps full.


DMI
User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 24606 times:

V-ref on the G-V, with those massive wings, can get into the low teens, 115 or so. On the G-IV with much smaller wings, it's 15 knots or so higher.

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineJgarrido From Guam, joined Mar 2007, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 24603 times:

I've seen a T-37 do 100 kts GS still outside the FAF.

User currently offline767driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 24603 times:



Quoting PeachAir (Reply 3):
Depends on the type of jet.

The Cessna Citation (500/501/550/560) etc all the straight wing aircraft can land at 110kts.

Also - when flying in the jumpseat on Transbrasil 767-200 (back in 1997) from GRU to GIG we approached the GIG airport at 129kts. (We also use 5 degrees flaps for tkeoff - something we dont do here in the USA)

THX

5 degrees for takeoff is standard at my airline on the 757/767. Why would it matter if you're here in the states or overseas? It's usually company specific


User currently offlineMoose135 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2301 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 24575 times:



Quoting Jgarrido (Reply 8):
I've seen a T-37 do 100 kts GS still outside the FAF.

Approach speed on the Tweet was 110kts for instrument approaches, 100kts on final in the overhead.



KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5970 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 24523 times:

Now, by jet, what are you implying? A turbojet, turbofan, or turboprop? And, are we talking single, or multiple engines?


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User currently offlineTb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1576 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 24489 times:

A light Lear 23 is down around 93 KIAS. Depending on the wing a Lear 24/25 can have a ref of anywhere in the 117 range to 147 I think it was.

A nearly empty Falcon 20 is 110 KIAS or 107 KIAS, depending the engine differences and the 2 different travel options on the rudder (23 deg vs 30 deg).

Most of the time we "cross the fence" at Ref+10 and touch down at Ref.



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User currently offlineRwessel From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2314 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 24468 times:
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Several people have built self-launching sailplanes with small jet engines. Those would have a landing speed in the mid-40kt range.

User currently offlineG4Doc2004 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 24327 times:

The Citation Sovereign (CE680) can be landed down in the 92-95KT range depending on weight. I flew the sim at ICT and got it down to 89KT, but I don't think that would ever happen in a real scenario. Just a couple of mechaincs in Flight Safety MX training goofing around at 2AM........


"Failure to prepare is preparing to fail"--Benjamin Franklin
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 24238 times:

A quick glance at a "not for operational use" chart gives this:

Boeing 737-300; Flaps 40; Landing Weight of 78000 lbs (A) gives me a VSO (B) extrapolated from VREF chart is 82.3 knots.

Same airplane at 132300 lbs, same flaps, the speed is 112.3 Knots.

(A) A weight probably typical for empty airplane, two pilots, enough fuel to make a takeoff and landing with reserves.

(B) Stall speed, or minimum steady flight speed in the landing configuration.


Unofficial, but fairly trustworthy. Of course the 'point three' on each number is a bit finer than I can read off the old round dial so you won't catch me anywhere near those numbers except on rollout.



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User currently offlineWard86IND From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 295 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 24217 times:



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 15):
Boeing 737-300; Flaps 40; Landing Weight of 78000 lbs (A) gives me a VSO (B) extrapolated from VREF chart is 82.3 knots.

Same airplane at 132300 lbs, same flaps, the speed is 112.3 Knots.

I find this extremely hard to believe....132,300 lbs on the 733 is quite a load...i would expect a VREF in the 140 knot range at least...

of course that's my non-expert opinion, maybe some B737 pilots could offer their insight



Live your dream.
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 24207 times:

Quoting Ward86IND (Reply 16):
I find this extremely hard to believe....132,300 lbs on the 733 is quite a load...i would expect a VREF in the 140 knot range at least...

You are quite right.
You are talking about VREF
I posted VSO which, again, is stall speed or minimum steady flight speed in the landing configuration. (in this case Flaps 40)

VREF is standardized at 1.3 VSO so the actual numbers were:

78000 lbs VREF 107 knots. (107 / 1.3 = 82.3)
132200 lbs VREF 146 knots (146 / 1.3 = 112.3)

VAPP where it is called that, is VREF plus wind or any other required additive.

Now with regard to the o/p question regarding minimum speed at which one can safely land, well that is a discussion with more to do with definitions and expression than with flight ops matters. Some (non airline) operators might use an approach speed of 1.1 VSO which, assuming competence and due care is "safe"

When does one "land" the plane. I've had a touchdown speed of about 67 knots indicated after an approach with a VREF of well over a hundred knots. The engines were stuck in a high idle condition and I got in ground effect and probably even had a measure of "effective weight reduction by thrust vectoring" as well. We just wallowed along just off the ground unable to get it down but we were a very long way from running out of runway. Safe? Sure, or I would have gone around. (not safe in this case)

[Edited 2008-08-26 11:02:11]

[Edited 2008-08-26 11:05:15]


Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 24149 times:
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Quoting Tb727 (Reply 12):
2 different travel options on the rudder

What are the benefits to each travel option?

2H4



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineWard86IND From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 295 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 24051 times:



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 17):
You are quite right.
You are talking about VREF
I posted VSO which, again, is stall speed or minimum steady flight speed in the landing configuration. (in this case Flaps 40)

Oops sorry...i didnt see the VSO there. now it makes sense



Live your dream.
User currently offlineMHG From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 777 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 23889 times:

Just want to throw in a not yet mentioned type: YAK-40

I have no clue how low it´s minimum speed is but would expect less than 100 kts (even its cruise speed is less than 300 kts ...)

Maybe someone could check out this type ???



I miss the sound of rolls royce darts and speys
User currently offlineCWAFlyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 666 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 23698 times:

A friend of mind who is a retired TWA captain told me that if the 727-100 was light enough, 103 knots Vref was not unheard of.

User currently offlineBigSaabowski From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 23653 times:



Quoting Jgarrido (Reply 8):
I've seen a T-37 do 100 kts GS still outside the FAF.

Any jet can do 100kts GS with the right headwind.


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 23642 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR



Quoting BigSaabowski (Reply 22):
Any jet can do 100kts GS with the right headwind.

Even less with the right treadmill...

2H4



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 23599 times:

On the 74 classic I have seen ref less than 120. Can't remember the exact number, but it was in "100 teens". It is like landing a kite. For comparison, at MLW Flaps 25 ref is 162.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 23):
Even less with the right treadmill...

Aww, not this again.



Proud OOTSK member
25 Airbuster : on a side note, i believe i read that the airbii use air from the bleed system to blow over the trailing edge of the wing, to so increase the lifting
26 SlamClick : I think I can confirm that it is not true. They may have conducted BLC tests as so many manufacturers have, but not on a production Airbus.
27 FlyASAGuy2005 : Uh oh...
28 Jgarrido : a frictionless treadmill?
29 2H4 : I much prefer the kind with the optional "magical force" package. 2H4
30 PJFlysFast : I watched a global 5000 land at 90knts once! There was a head wind that day and they were light. But They normally land at 110knts to 105knts
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