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Pushing The MD 11 To Its Limit  
User currently offlineQwame From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 129 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7045 times:

How is Sonair able to fly an MD11 non stop 3x a week between IAH and LAD when clearly that distance is pushing the limits of the airline?

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4650 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7001 times:

Sonair isn't operating it. It is operated by World. And if you don't mind me asking, what exactly do you mean 'that distance is pushing the limits of the airline'?


For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24080 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6982 times:



Quoting Qwame (Thread starter):
How is Sonair able to fly an MD11 non stop 3x a week between IAH and LAD when clearly that distance is pushing the limits of the airline?

Since it operates in a premium configuration with something like 113 seats, that probably helps since it will be well below it's maximum payload.


User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8906 posts, RR: 76
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6983 times:
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http://www.sonairsarl.com/houstonExpress_en.shtml

Their website says it is a direct flight and not nonstop, so it could be that it stops somewhere for refuelling.

The distance between IAH and LAD is 6636 nm. Which is pretty much for the MD11.

our longest flight with the MD11 is: LEJ to HKG with 4789NM and the longest we had in the schedule was FRA-MNL with 5568NM. but then we had weight restrictions already.

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8906 posts, RR: 76
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6974 times:
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Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
Since it operates in a premium configuration with something like 113 seats, that probably helps since it will be well below it's maximum payload.

Oh only 113 seats. Well, then that is possible.

WILCO737 (MD11F)
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It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6965 times:

Delta Air Lines, at one point, operated LAX-HKG with the MD-11. Although I've heard they did have weight restrictions especially during periods of strong headwinds, nevertheless, they were operating it with a full cabin. It is only 300nm shorter than IAD-LAD.

User currently offlineMd11sdf From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6932 times:

Perhaps they have only 30 to 60 PAX on board each way. After all, it IS operating exclusively for the wealthy oil industry. The aircraft (N278WA) is an ER model and it's a shame that world does not paint it in the full SONAIR livery. It is pretty nice looking.

Terry



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User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4675 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6917 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 3):
our longest flight with the MD11 is: LEJ to HKG with 4789NM and the longest we had in the schedule was FRA-MNL with 5568NM. but then we had weight restrictions already.

Didn't you once say that with a full payload the MD-11F can only fly 2800nm? The weight restrictions on LEJ-HKG and FRA-MNL must be substantial.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6906 times:



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 5):
Delta Air Lines, at one point, operated LAX-HKG with the MD-11. Although I've heard they did have weight restrictions especially during periods of strong headwinds, nevertheless, they were operating it with a full cabin.

They only so did with extra AUX fuel tanks in the bellies... As I recally 2-4 MD-11s were specially equipped at the time.

And even then enroute stops in ANC were I'd say a weekly occurrence especially the winter months.

Lastly flight did not last long -- probably a mix weak DL market presence and poor economics of the flight.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8906 posts, RR: 76
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6840 times:
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Quoting A342 (Reply 7):
Didn't you once say that with a full payload the MD-11F can only fly 2800nm? The weight restrictions on LEJ-HKG and FRA-MNL must be substantial.

Yes, full payload would be 95 tons of cargo, that is the same weight as 950 passengers  crowded 

So, flying LEJ-HKG is max payload roughly 60-65 tons. which is enough, because it is a DHL flight, so only you shippings and with SonAir and only 113 seats, it shouldn't be a problem.

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8906 posts, RR: 76
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6808 times:
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Quoting A342 (Reply 7):
Didn't you once say that with a full payload the MD-11F can only fly 2800nm?

Did I say 2800NM? That's not a lot for a long haul aircraft... Let me try to remember what I posted there.
Oh I think I remember: HKG-ALA I think it was. We couldn't take more cargo with us, because we were landing weight limited. Our take off weight was roughly 10 tons below the maximum, which would be about 1.5 hours more flight time beyong ALA and that means about 800NM more range, so, maybe 3600NM.

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineQwame From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 129 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6780 times:



Quoting JRadier (Reply 1):

I was under the impression that even though the MD 11 has a limit of 6691nm, it is impossible to do that distance with a full load. However, Viscount724 cleared it up by explaining that the flight only has some 113 passengers.


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2254 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6781 times:

Our MD-11s have a MaxZFW of 431.5; Max fuel load 258.3 and MTOGW 630.5

With max fuel your zfw would be approx 374.0 counting taxi fuel. These are basic as t/o climb or obstacle may affect the numbers. I have seen 630.5 at t/o a number of times with heavy cargo loads or max fuel loads. We do CDG-SFS ,MEM-NRT and KIX-MEM


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4675 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6721 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 9):
So, flying LEJ-HKG is max payload roughly 60-65 tons. which is enough, because it is a DHL flight



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 10):
Oh I think I remember: HKG-ALA I think it was. We couldn't take more cargo with us, because we were landing weight limited. Our take off weight was roughly 10 tons below the maximum, which would be about 1.5 hours more flight time beyong ALA and that means about 800NM more range, so, maybe 3600NM.

Thanks for your explanations.  thumbsup 



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineQwame From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 129 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6704 times:

So what kind of weight restriction will a A342 or 343 have to have to make a non-stop IAH - LAD flight without a fuel stop? (Basically how many passengers and how much cargo)

User currently offlineFXRA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 700 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6571 times:

The Houston Express is very much weight limited. IAH-LAD rarely is able to operate with more the 40,000 lbs, occasionally higher in winter. The return leg is much worse, 25,000 lbs is a good day. Going down we would send as much cargo as possible. ironically, not a lot of freight moving on the return legs. We rarely stopped on either eg as SonAir preferred to go non stop and leave cargo behind. Most the time, stops were results of MEL restrictions (the dreaded 2.7% no tail fuel management penalties).

The normal aircraft, 278, has aux tanks in the forward hold and can usually get about 270,000lbs of fuel max. The return leg from LAD usually requires a full load. The aircraft, as mentioned above, only holds like 120 pax. 3 classes, with "coach" being the normal business class seats. First class is the sleeper seats and almost like small cabins. And a cappuccino machine.

World used one of the Delta Queens (801,803, or 804) on the route when 278 was in check. Even though those planes hold more fuel, they were usually more restricted on payload due to lower thrust engines, no deflected ailerons, and being much heavier.

Some trips from LAD-IAH could be a challenge to carry a 15000lb payload.



Visualize Whirled Peas
User currently offlineFXRA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 700 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6565 times:



Quoting Qwame (Reply 14):
So what kind of weight restriction will a A342 or 343 have to have to make a non-stop IAH - LAD flight without a fuel stop? (Basically how many passengers and how much cargo)

Before I left WOA, we did an analysis for replacement types for the Houston Express. As I recall, we ran B744 and A340's (ex Air Canada examples). The 340s did very well. About 50,000lbs or so without much problem on the LAD-IAH legs. Of course these were generic numbers without runway data.



Visualize Whirled Peas
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4675 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6501 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 10):
Oh I think I remember: HKG-ALA I think it was. We couldn't take more cargo with us, because we were landing weight limited.

On a second thought, I have another question: Why were you landing weight limited? Any aircraft should be able to land with its max. structural payload and sufficient fuel reserves to reach an alternate airport. (I do realize that alternate airports are rather thinly spread around ALA, but still)



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineQwame From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 129 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6495 times:



Quoting FXRA (Reply 16):

FXRA, so why hasn't WOA changed the aircraft to a B744 or a A343? Wouldn't it be more economical for them?


User currently offline9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 693 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6482 times:
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Quoting A342 (Reply 17):
Any aircraft should be able to land with its max. structural payload and sufficient fuel reserves to reach an alternate airport.

The aircraft can, but can the runway take it? Might have been a length issue?



Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
User currently offlineFxra From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 700 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6474 times:

With Sonair only doing 1 year at a time contracts, it's not worth it to add a new type for just one customer who may vanish in a year. With the 744F's there now, they may be more inclined add a pax version for that route.


Visualize Whirled Peas
User currently offlineQwame From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 129 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6456 times:



Quoting Fxra (Reply 20):

Fxra, doubt SonAir is going anywhere anytime soon. Question though, they fly a 744F 3 times a week into LAD also?


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2254 posts, RR: 16
Reply 22, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6438 times:



Quoting A342 (Reply 17):
I have another question: Why were you landing weight limited? Any aircraft should be able to land with its max. structural payload and sufficient fuel reserves to reach an alternate airport

As far as our MDs go if you landed at Max ZFW AND MLGW you would have 50,000 lbs on board. That's a fair amount of gas. I've done HKG-ALA a number of times and it's only about 6+30 hrs. Of course going into ALA requires keeping up with the wx since ALA can fog in being at the base of the mtns.


User currently offlineIAirAllie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6388 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 3):
Their website says it is a direct flight and not nonstop, so it could be that it stops somewhere for refuelling.

It is usually non-stop.

I belive Sonair and World are in discussions about using a 747. Time will tell if it comes to fruition.


User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8906 posts, RR: 76
Reply 24, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6383 times:
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Quoting A342 (Reply 17):
On a second thought, I have another question: Why were you landing weight limited? Any aircraft should be able to land with its max. structural payload and sufficient fuel reserves to reach an alternate airport. (I do realize that alternate airports are rather thinly spread around ALA, but still)

If you add up all that weight (Airplane, cargo, fuel) and then burn some fuel on your way to ALA, then you need to be below MAX LANDING WEIGHT. And because the flight is rather short and TSE (1.5 hours away) was our alternate you are landing weight restricted. We landed in ALA on that day with 222.0 tons, which is 0.9 below our maximum. And we had enough reserves for contingencies, holding, alternate. So no fuel problem at all here.

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 19):
Might have been a length issue?

The runway in ALA is 4400m long. So LONG enough  Wink

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
25 A342 : Alright, I had assumed that you had a closer alternate. TSE is indeed quite a distance from ALA. Sorry if I ask another question, but which other air
26 CosmicCruiser : I know you told me before but what do you use for max ldg? Ours is 481.5/1000lbs
27 Post contains links A342 : Obviously they use 222.944kg/491.500lb, as described on page 3: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/md11sec2.pdf
28 WILCO737 : Exactly. Our 4 alternates for ALA: FRU, TAS, TSE, KGF and if the weather is bad there, then sometimes I saw ISB as well. But not very often but this
29 TZTriStar500 : This year while 278 is is check, aircraft 277 will be converted as a temp replacement. My company is doing the interior reconfiguration engineering f
30 Michi : The A340 is able to do take offs in LAD up to MTOW in typical WX Conditions. MTOW 271Tons / 597000pounds C4 Engines, OAT +35°C Max Fuel Load would be
31 A342 : A 275 or 276.5 tonne MTOW would yield even better results.
32 Post contains images Michi : Of course   However I only have the take off performance for the A340 version with 271tons MTOW and C4 engines. And there are many different A340 ve
33 Post contains links A342 : See page 72: http://www.content.airbusworld.com/S...C/DATA_CONSULT/AC_A340-200-300.pdf Assuming sea level, ISA+15°C conditions and a 3700m runway, y
34 Michi : Hey, great link I was using "real world" data with obstacles and all the other things you consider during T.O. calculation. Sometimes obstacles will h
35 Post contains images WILCO737 : We don't have LAD in our laptops (which we do our calculation with), so I cannot provide any information about that special airport. But the MD11 is
36 Post contains links A342 : If anyone is interested, more of this stuff can be found here: Airbus: http://www.content.airbusworld.com/S...cal_Data/html/800x600_AC_main.html Boei
37 Fxra : I don't recall there being any obstacle issues four our MD-11's. Rarely though did they ever reach max structural weights coming out of LAD. Usually r
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