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Defueling A Lear 35  
User currently offlineSandpiper1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3715 times:

Does anyone have any information on how to defuel a Lear 35?

Thanks

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 4 days ago) and read 3676 times:

The only way you can do it is with a de-fuel function on a fuel trucks over wing hose if you don't have a de-fueling "pig" in your hanger. The problem is you can only drain as much fuel as you can reach into the tank with the nozzle so you can probably only get maybe 60 gal out of each tip.

Now, if you want to get really creative and if that particular 35 has fuel dump, well you can see where I am going with that one. It comes out pretty quick and a bucket won't do it, I've seen that not work.

Why are you de-fueling it?



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 4 days ago) and read 3670 times:

Walk into any flight school and ask a group of CFI's, "Who wants to build time in a Lear?"


Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineJetstar From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1616 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3667 times:
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I doubt any FBO will defuel with a fuel truck, I believe it is against FAA rules to defuel an airplane and use that fuel again because it is considered contaminated and cannot be used for aviation purposes, so it cannot be put back in a fuel truck unless it is an old truck used for defueling purposes only. Usually they take that fuel and use it for hangar heaters or diesel fuel.

I have had to defuel fuel tanks on the JetStar’s I worked on to change fuel boost pumps, I had a 2” hose with a large B nut coupling and would pump it from one tank to another from the defuel port. The FBO would not let me pump it back into their fuel trucks. Any remaining fuel removed from the sump drains because diesel fuel or used for kerosene heaters, both of which I had.


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6264 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3646 times:

Here's my method (too bad it's not April 1st...)  cheeky 

Make sure you get an early start, as you will be at this for a few hours. It will probably easily spill over into the night.

Go to Home Depot, buy yourself several 5 gallon Homer buckets (estimate the remaining fuel on board in gallons, and divide by 5 to get the number of Homer buckets needed  Wink ), and then proceed to the FBO. Purchase a fuel tester, and proceed to fill the tester from the quick drain points on the aircraft's wings and belly, and dump the contents of the fuel tester into a Homer bucket each time. When you have filled one Homer bucket, place the lid on it and get a new one.

Finally, when no one's looking, and you have successfully drained all the fuel from the aircraft, sneak up on top of the FBO's Jet A truck, open the top hatch, and dump the buckets in. Note: this may require a buddy for lookout and bucket brigade duty  shhh  The bewildered FBO manager will wonder why he's showing a few more gallons of Jet A on hand in the morning...  Wink



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineTb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3630 times:

The problem with the Homer buckets is that the sump drains on the Lear are tiny and just dribble out fuel. It would take all night to fill a bucket!

Too bad it's not a 20 series Lear, it doesn't take long to burn a lot of gas in those things, especially on the ground. I guess you could make a mess and open the crossflow and turn on a boost pump and pop the cap on the opposite side. It spills fuel everywhere though.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 2):
Walk into any flight school and ask a group of CFI's, "Who wants to build time in a Lear?"

Yeah that might work, unfortunately you wouldn't be able to use it again, lol. I've seen some hot shot CFI's lunches being eaten by a Lear on many occasions!



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineBoeing767mech From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1021 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3614 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 4):
Finally, when no one's looking, and you have successfully drained all the fuel from the aircraft, sneak up on top of the FBO's Jet A truck, open the top hatch, and dump the buckets in. Note: this may require a buddy for lookout and bucket brigade duty The bewildered FBO manager will wonder why he's showing a few more gallons of Jet A on hand in the morning...

Here in the NorthEast that should read place bukets in back of truck or other personal vehicle and race home and deposit said Jet A in oil tank to burn to heat your home during the winter.

David



Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3613 times:



Quoting Tb727 (Reply 5):
unfortunately you wouldn't be able to use it again

The original poster never said that was a requirement. If all else fails, wouldn't a simply garden hose syphon work? It wouldn't get all of it, but it is a good start.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6264 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3604 times:



Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 6):
Here in the NorthEast that should read place bukets in back of truck or other personal vehicle and race home and deposit said Jet A in oil tank to burn to heat your home during the winter.

David

Didn't a guy get arrested for doing that to JetBlue aircraft up in PWM?  Wink



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineBoeing767mech From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1021 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3597 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 8):
Didn't a guy get arrested for doing that to JetBlue aircraft up in PWM?

SHHHH. the warden doesn't know I'm on his computer.


But yes there was a hose jockey in Portland arrested for that, We used to sump the airplanes at the commuter I used to work at and one of the guys would used it in his VW. Back then the DOM knew and didn't care they had to pay to haul off the waste Jet A anyway so it was in the cars and tugs.
Alot has changed since the days of Metro III's and Wings West Airlines

David



Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
User currently offlineTb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3595 times:

A majority of our sump fuel and de-fuel fuel ends up in a couple of our mechanics TDI's along with our GPU's and some tugs. Our bosses want the mechs take our Jet-A, otherwise we have to pay for them to haul it away.


Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineG4doc2004 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3580 times:

Actually, they make a rig that filters the fuel as it comes out of the aircraft and then filters in one again as it is being pumped back in. We have such a rig at our hangar. Works very well, and everytime I sample the fuel before it is pumped back in it is perfectly clear. Our tank is stainless steel and holds 1000 gallons of jet-A.

And to answer the question asked in the original post, you can defuel a Lear 35 by making a hose up with an adaptor that will fit the lines to the engine and use the boost pump to pump it out. Remember 2 things. First, don't try to pump the tanks dry with the boost pumps. The pumps use the fuel as a coolant and you'll fry the pumps. Also, transfer the fuselage fuel into the wings first. Otherwise, you'll risk an aft CG in the hangar. This is more critical on the Lear 28 and 31, and they don't have the tip tanks to balance the aircraft.



"Failure to prepare is preparing to fail"--Benjamin Franklin
User currently offlineJetstar From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1616 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3544 times:
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Quoting Tb727 (Reply 10):
A majority of our sump fuel and de-fuel fuel ends up in a couple of our mechanics TDI's along with our GPU's and some tugs. Our bosses want the mechs take our Jet-A, otherwise we have to pay for them to haul it away.

All he sump fuel from the JetStars I worked on either wound up in my VW diesel Rabbit or my oil tank for my house. I would let it sit overnight in a 5 gallon gas can to let any suspended water settle out before I used it. For my Rabbit I would add about an ounce of engine oil or Marvel Mystery Oil to the jet fuel for fuel pump lubrication, for the furnace, it went in as is.

The JetStar has 14 sump drains and I had a heavy hand when sumping, so it was no problem to fill up the 5 gallon can on a preflight. I wasn’t being sneaky about it either, the chief pilot knew what I was doing, JetStars have a history of wing corrosion because of water in the fuel so it was done in the name of preventative maintenance.

I wasn’t all that greedy, I did give some to our pilots who had kerosene heaters at home.


User currently offlineAcNDTTech From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 338 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3519 times:



Quoting Jetstar (Reply 3):
I doubt any FBO will defuel with a fuel truck

At one FBO that I used to work at, we had a truck strictly for de-fuel. We did heavy mx on aircraft, so that was why. With the used Jet-A, we filled the fuel tanks of all our GSE and anything else that would burn diesel/kerosine. We even donated it to the local fire dept. for training purposes.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3476 times:



Quoting Jetstar (Reply 3):
I believe it is against FAA rules to defuel an airplane and use that fuel again because it is considered contaminated and cannot be used for aviation purposes,

Defuelling must be carried out into an empty clean fuel bowser kept for that purpose after the necessary checks are carried out on the fuel prior to drainage with regards to contamination & water entrappment.
A receipt is then issued by the refuelling company to the airline on the amount of fuel defuelled.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineWESTERN737800 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 691 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3414 times:

At the shop where my friend works when they defuel JetA, some mechanics have their own barrell and they use it in their diesel pickups.


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User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3341 times:



Quoting WESTERN737800 (Reply 15):
some mechanics have their own barrell and they use it in their diesel pickups.

Long term damage if one uses Kerosene with Diesel  Smile
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineJetstar From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1616 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3332 times:
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Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):
Long term damage if one uses Kerosene with Diesel
regds
MEL

No so, JetA is basically #1 kerosene or #1 oil, diesel is #2 oil. I ran my VW Rabbit diesel for many years on jet fuel.

Jet fuel has less lubrication qualities than #2, so all is needed is to add some oil, I used to add about and ounce or 2 of engine motor oil or Marvel Mystery Oil to 5 gallons for injection pump lubrication. I put over 100,000 miles on my Rabbit, many of those miles were on jet fuel.

My gas mileage would also be down about 8 percent using jet fuel, I would average 48 mpg on jet on the highway and about 52 mpg with diesel.

In the cold winter months, diesel fuel is blended with #1 oil to reduce the gelling of the fuel and could be blended to 50 – 50 in the real cold northern New England states. The blend is posted on the pump. Some people would even make up their own blend and add water white kerosene in the below zero days, clear #1 oil and just add some motor oil to the fuel to restore the lubrication to the fuel.

On the airport where I worked years ago, dozens of mechanics had diesel cars and trucks and they all ran them on jet fuel. The running joke was at the end of the day, when everyone was going home you could see a black cloud of smoke arise from the parking lots as they started the vehicles.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3296 times:



Quoting Jetstar (Reply 17):
The running joke was at the end of the day, when everyone was going home you could see a black cloud of smoke arise from the parking lots as they started the vehicles

What about Cylinder condition  Smile
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineJetstar From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1616 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3273 times:
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Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 18):
What about Cylinder condition
regds
MEL

These cars were 1980 diesel cars, they were black exhaust smokers back then, not the cleaner cars and trucks of today.

My Rabbit from day one used to put out a cloud of black smoke when I accelerated from a stop no matter what fuel I was using.

Using Jet fuel will not cause any long term damage, as long as you add some lubrication to the fuel.

Some FBO’s because their jet fuel trucks are not licensed for road use, instead of incurring the costs of keeping a separate diesel fuel tank, will run jet fuel in their diesel fuel trucks.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3229 times:



Quoting Jetstar (Reply 19):
Some FBO’s because their jet fuel trucks are not licensed for road use, instead of incurring the costs of keeping a separate diesel fuel tank, will run jet fuel in their diesel fuel trucks.

Interesting.
Out here the only place where ATF is used apart from the aircraft is in the portable Genset  Smile
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineWESTERN737800 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 691 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3197 times:

We use Jet Fuel in a tug, a pressure washer, and a preheater (I hate using the preheater).


Bring back Western Airlines!
User currently offlineNjxc500 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3146 times:

I don't see an issue running jet fuel in a diesel. My last truck had an owners manual that listed jet-A as an approved fuel. I'm pretty sure for cold climates all diesels can run #1, but like what was already stated, they need extra lube for the pump.

Nick


User currently offlineMeister808 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 973 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3128 times:

Technically any on-road diesel engine made after 2007 cannot run jet fuel, as is it not 'ultra low sulfur' and thus will theoretically clog the federally mandated exhaust particulate trap. However, knowing a thing or two about how the exhaust filter works, I'm about 95% certain that clogging shouldn't be too much of a concern as long as the EGTs get hot enough to cook the particulates in the filter every once in a while (e.g. run it down the highway for 10 miles if it has been idling all night)

Or, you could just do some light 'modification' to the exhaust and go with a standard muffler.

Meister



Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
User currently offlineJetstar From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1616 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (5 years 7 months 23 hours ago) and read 3090 times:
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Quoting Njxc500 (Reply 22):
I don't see an issue running jet fuel in a diesel. My last truck had an owners manual that listed jet-A as an approved fuel. I'm pretty sure for cold climates all diesels can run #1, but like what was already stated, they need extra lube for the pump.

Another nice thing about running Jet fuel in a diesel car or truck, it’s not dyed red like other off road fuels like heating oil.


25 Luv2cattlecall : Jw, how does that make a difference? Does the red permanently stain things and void your warranty or something?
26 Jetstar : Its to prevent truckers from using heating oil, which is basically #2 oil in their trucks and avoiding state and federal highway taxes, the US Govern
27 Gulfstream650 : And so if I pulled up next to you at the traffic lights would it smell like I was actually parked on the ramp?!
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