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Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation.  
User currently offlineCJAContinental From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 459 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11279 times:

I found an interesting page describing ten aviation disasters that stimulated the greatest advances and changes in aircraft safety to what it is today.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4221138.html

However, I was surprised to see the absence of one aviation disaster in particular:

American Airlines flight 191 (DC-10-10), Chicago O'Hare, 1979.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_191

Although the accident was mainly attributed to engine maintenance, the initial cause of the crash, (the engine coming over the wing and damaging the leading edge) further exploited weaknesses in the design of the DC-10 at the time, that could have otherwise perhaps averted the disaster if the aircraft had these design aspects been different. These mainly concerned the redundancy and location of systems (in this case, hydraulic lines and redundancy of stall warning systems).

If I have interpreted sources correctly, the accident lead the NTSB to link management, maintenance and aircraft design to factors contributing to the crash.

The airworthiness directives issued by the FAA indicate the changes needed and introduced as a result of the accident.
http://lessons.air.mmac.faa.gov/l2/Am191/ads/

In my opinion, some of these AD's would have greatly affected future aircraft design, as well as general recommendations by the NTSB, and perhaps they have, and this is why I'm surprised it wasn't included.

So, would you agree that AA flight 191 significantly influenced changes in aviation safety? Also, which technical/technological advances resulting from disasters have constituted the greatest changes and impacts in aviation safety, and why? Are they included in the popular mechanics page (first link) or not (Do you agree with the list?)

Thoughts...

[Edited 2008-10-11 09:24:11]

[Edited 2008-10-11 09:25:16]


Work Hard/Fly Right.
87 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUltimateDelta From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2127 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 11228 times:

I know that AA 587 led to slightly adjusted takeoff procedures and increased distance between flights, and like AC 797, a fire involving a Pacific Western 732 also caused many airlines to install fire-resistant seats. So did the British Airtours fire.


Midwest Airlines- 1984-2010
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19738 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 11229 times:

The Concorde crash changed aviation. A lot.

If you count Challenger and Columbia as aviation accidents, those changed aviation a lot, too.


User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2899 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 11193 times:

The Tenerife 1977 crash changed a lot to ICAO ATC/pilot communication - very strict definition of vocabulary.


I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineMissedApproach From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 713 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 11186 times:



Quoting CJAContinental (Thread starter):
I found an interesting page describing ten aviation disasters that stimulated the greatest advances and changes in aircraft safety to what it is today.

I find it more surprising that the Comet is not on the list. Not only was it the most exhaustive investigation of the period, it effectively allowed the US aviation industry to overtake Britain.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
If you count Challenger and Columbia as aviation accidents, those changed aviation a lot, too.

I can't agree. It was a huge problem for NASA & changed the way they ran missions, & was also fairly traumatic for the general public, but it had little effect on general or commercial aviation.



Can you hear me now?
User currently offlineWESTERN737800 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 693 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 11173 times:

I was kinda surprised to not see the Air Florida 732 on the list. I remember watching the news as a little kid that night what a sad day.


Bring back Western Airlines!
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25372 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11155 times:

Another crash that played a major role in improving safety was the Pan Am 707 crash in Maryland on approach to PHL in December 1963, where a lightning strike caused fuel vapors in empty fuel tanks to explode. That crash played an instrumental role in the FAA's decision to require the installation of static wicks on jet aircraft.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19631208-0


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6392 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11145 times:



Quoting MissedApproach (Reply 4):
I find it more surprising that the Comet is not on the list. Not only was it the most exhaustive investigation of the period, it effectively allowed the US aviation industry to overtake Britain.

It also permanently altered the science and art of accident investigations. This is probably the biggest mark that the Comet crashes left.

Quoting WESTERN737800 (Reply 5):
I was kinda surprised to not see the Air Florida 732 on the list. I remember watching the news as a little kid that night what a sad day.

 checkmark  This accident, more than any other, was probably the final nail in the coffin for the "Captain is God" mentality, and the beginning of airline training departments to embrace CRM. Air Florida 90 was a 100% preventable accident (a perfectly good airplane was flown into the Potomac river), and the First Officer's input being taken seriously (the CVR picks up the F/O saying that the engine instrument readings were all out of whack) could have lead to a takeoff abort before V1 .



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineYWG From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 1146 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11136 times:

That one between a general aviation piper and i think an Alaskan MD80 over LA is the reason TCAS exists today.


Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
User currently offlineJetstar From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 11121 times:
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The Lockheed Electra crashes in the 1960’s when the wings would separate from the fuselages in flight.

User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25372 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 11115 times:



Quoting YWG (Reply 8):
That one between a general aviation piper and i think an Alaskan MD80 over LA is the reason TCAS exists today

I think you're referring to this one in 1986 involving an Aeromexico DC-9.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19860831-0


User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2609 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 11094 times:
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Quoting CJAContinental (Thread starter):
However, I was surprised to see the absence of one aviation disaster in particular:

Yeah, there are plenty of influential crashes that have been omitted right back to the Fokker Tri-motors. These guys must have been space constricted and had to pick the best they could. It is also obvious they may not have been old enough to remember a lot of the ones they did report on or they might have chosen a few differently. Oh well, they tried.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineUltimateDelta From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2127 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 11046 times:

I think a PA 707 crash in Maryland in the '60s (These are all the details I remember) caused manufacturers to make their planes more resistant to weather, too. Oh and I just thought of another crash: BOAC Comet, Jan. 10, 1954: led to study of metal fatigue. Only just now did I realize how majorly important that one was, too!


Midwest Airlines- 1984-2010
User currently offlineAAH732UAL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 11030 times:

WN587 at BUR..........That pretty much implemented a new standard for stabilized approaches and FOQA (Flight Ops Quality Assurance) Alerts now being posted warning pilots of possible problems that could arise.

There was also a 727 crash at JNU in the late 70s that eventually lead AS to pioneer RNAV(RNP) procedures in the mid 90s which has since lead to a ton of new performance and/or RNAV-GPS based procedures. All of which was part of the baseline for the HAR (High Altitude Redesign) program that FAA has started to get better efficiency out of the NAS (National AirSpace).

Those are two that come to mind on the tec side of flying...........


User currently offlineBa97 From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10999 times:

The list is a good list and is a valiant attempt to narrow the list to 10. I find it odd that there is not a list of international situations. The Comet I would submit is not changing aviation, if I interpret this article as changing aviation operations. I would say it altered the industry as a whole more than any. The Comet issue invented crash investigations and altered construction but I would say it did not change aviation ops.


there is economy class, business class, first class...then Concorde..pure class
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17044 posts, RR: 67
Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10948 times:



Quoting YWG (Reply 8):
That one between a general aviation piper and i think an Alaskan MD80 over LA is the reason TCAS exists today.

I think you mean PSA 727 over San Diego.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineDingDong From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10937 times:



Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 13):
WN587 at BUR..........That pretty much implemented a new standard for stabilized approaches

Hi, not sure I could quite agree with that assertion, mostly because prior to the overrun, the existing standard was already adequate: "Stabilized approach by 500 feet".

The flight crew in question wasn't stabilized by 500, so... proceeding with that particular approach showed some questionable ADM, as well as questionable CRM, and not to mention that of disregarding the employer's own SOP without a pretty compelling reason.



DingDong, honey, please answer the doorbell!
User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10037 posts, RR: 26
Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 10919 times:
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Quoting MissedApproach (Reply 4):

I find it more surprising that the Comet is not on the list.

 checkmark 

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 15):
I think you mean PSA 727 over San Diego.

I think he may be referring to this one:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4221138.html?page=6

I'm not sure what the article was using as the definition of a crash, but it obviously doesn't mention the 9/11 hijackings, which have probably changed air travel more than anything else in my life.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 10915 times:



Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 13):
WN587 at BUR..........That pretty much implemented a new standard for stabilized approaches and FOQA (Flight Ops Quality Assurance) Alerts now being posted warning pilots of possible problems that could arise.

I disagree. The FOQA and DFDR program had been long established prior to the BUR event. In fact, WN had a requirement in the FOM to be stabilised, on a visual approach, at 500' AGL. For as long as I can remember most carriers had that requirement. Some were 1000' if doing an instrument approach and 500' if visual, or a flat 1000' for all approaches.

Quoting CJAContinental (Thread starter):
So, would you agree that AA flight 191 significantly influenced changes in aviation safety?

Not really. What it did do was ensure the FAA provided increased oversight in maintenance procedures. AA was using an unauthorised procedure for engine removal.


User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2899 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 10795 times:



Quoting CJAContinental (Thread starter):
I found an interesting page describing ten aviation disasters that stimulated the greatest advances and changes in aircraft safety to what it is today.

Only now did I actually read the article. The 10 crashes all took place in the US or on planes that had just taken off from it. The rest of the world apparently wasn't that interesting.

Quoting Ba97 (Reply 14):
I find it odd that there is not a list of international situations.

Indeed. Especially the Tenerife crash had a big effect on operations.



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineLHRBFSTrident From UK - Northern Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10611 times:

The British Airtours 737-200 fire at Manchester brought a whole host of new standards, at least for a/c covered by the UK's CAA -

frequency of boroscope inspections,
installation of floor-level exit path lighting,
increased aisle clearances between bulkheads,
increased pitch/deletion of pax seat at overwing exit rows,

plus highlighted the following issues in emergency situations:

the tendency for the 737 fwd svc door to jam when opened too quickly in automatic mode,
awareness of stopping the a/c into wind in the event of a fire

...and then the perennial argument over the provision of smokehoods for pax which was debated intensively immediately after that accident



Next up: LAX-LHR NZ002 Y SkyCouch! LHR-LAX NZ001 Y
User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1653 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10549 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 18):
Not really. What it did do was ensure the FAA provided increased oversight in maintenance procedures. AA was using an unauthorised procedure for engine removal.

Not only that but they found out that dual stick shakers were an option and on AA 191 it was on the F/O's side and not on the capt's which was the side that lost the engine. A lot of things came together to make that crash happen which is why the NTSB does such a good job not the FAA which is a joke. The FAA only does something when a bunch of people die and the NTSB makes a recommendation.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17044 posts, RR: 67
Reply 22, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10489 times:



Quoting LHRBFSTrident (Reply 20):
The British Airtours 737-200 fire at Manchester brought a whole host of new standards, at least for a/c covered by the UK's CAA -

Additionally, I believe there was a whole host of new fireproofing materials regulation. This crash was truly very important for fire safety.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10477 times:



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 21):
on AA 191 it was on the F/O's side and not on the capt's which was the side that lost the engine.

Hmmm, think you might be confused. The stick shaker does not respond from the loss of an engine. The stick shaker is based on the AOA sensor and on AA191 it had nothing to do with the crash. The accident investigation of 191 did turn up an improper training procedure where the crews were instructed to fly at V2 in the case of an engine failure. It has been changed to V2+10.


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 10349 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 7):
This accident, more than any other, was probably the final nail in the coffin for the "Captain is God" mentality

 spit   spit   spit   spit   spit 

Hardly. It's alive and well---just ask any dispatcher at any airline. Not every PIC, of course, but every outfit has its 2% group...

Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 13):
WN587 at BUR..........

I presume that you meant SWA1455, N668SW...
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20000305-0


25 Ptrjong : How so? I don't think it changed aviation one bit. Peter
26 AAH732UAL : Darn google
27 OPNLguy : The only 587 that comes to mind was AAL587, the A300 that departed JFK in Nov. 2001 and lost the vertical stabilizer and rudder shortly after takeoff
28 Access-Air : Yes, this was because Lockheed had not put enuff support structure in the engine mounts to dampen the engines from being able to slip into whirl mode
29 ConcordeBoy : Ptrjong is correct. It had long since been established that there wouldn't be a successor to Concorde any time soon, so the crash just fast-forwarded
30 Pihero : On the contrary. The Comet accidents ad incidents also are the origin of performance (especally take-off) regulations.
31 57AZ : The most important civil aviation crash of modern times was the Grand Canyon mid-air collision involving the United Airlines DC-6 and Trans World Airl
32 EMBQA : I can't think of one major accident in the last 30 years that did not change the way we operate
33 KELPkid : Maybe yes, maybe no. The biggie, though, is that the training department teaches captains and first officers (even flight engineers, for the few of t
34 Wingscrubber : The comet's most significant contribution to aviation was the discovery of the effect of stressed-skin pressurisation on METAL FATIGUE. How can anybod
35 Ba97 : Reading the great information, I see how dependingon the lens, a crash could be viewed as sigfnificant or not. Would a better split be crashes that ch
36 747400sp : If Pan Am flight 103 do not changed aviation what did! We have stronger security laws now, if you not flying with a plane, your bags can not stay on t
37 Stratosphere : Phil I was referring to the the fact that when the engine seperated from the wing it tore out the hydraulic lines and the leading edge slats retracte
38 Stratosphere : In fact after the AA191 crash it was mandated that all commercial aircraft come equipped with DUAL stick shakers.
39 Tdscanuck : How does that work? Static discharger wicks are for just that...dissipate static. They don't do any thing for dissipating lightning currents. Speed i
40 Luv2cattlecall : Have you seen the National Geographic episode about the Coment incidents? Interesting to see how they went about troubleshooting - one of the big clu
41 Ptrjong : It can be argued that Concorde is a mere footnote in aviation history, unlike the Comet. The thread, though, is not about the influence of aircraft d
42 YWG747 : To put it simply every aviation crash changes the industry as a whole. There is almost always something that comes out of a crash that changes things
43 OPNLguy : I agree completely. Trying to come up with a list (and especially one that may be of a limited quantity) of accidents that changed aviation lends it
44 Aaron747 : I don't know how much it actually changed outside what happens within western Europe. Listen to Japanese ATC and there's still plenty of non-English
45 Wingscrubber : Ptrjong, TsdCanuck, the title of the thread is 'Crashes that changed aviation', the sole Concorde crash resulted in development of new safer tyres and
46 Ptrjong : OK, that's a good point if these were actually implemented. The Concorde crash didn't change the speed we travel with, though. Well, it changed it fo
47 Tdscanuck : True, but you also said: That's what I was referring to. Respectfully, I think perhaps you need to read what part of your post I was responding to an
48 Ptrjong : I gather these were strictly fror Concorde itself. That's simply a fix, not changing aviation. Peter
49 Baroque : That omission makes the rest a joke. Tenerife - did not occur here syndrome. Sheesh.
50 Pihero : Even more than people are aware of : The Comet (with a capital C, please !) accidents that are remembered are only the in-flight explosion ones. Let'
51 Post contains images Wingscrubber : For those not so well versed in the service history of Concorde, and further to my previous posts, it is widely regarded that the air france crash eff
52 NBGSkyGod : Another one that wasn't in there was USAir 1493 and Skywest 5569. on February 2, 1991 USAir 1493 (B737-300) was cleared to land on 24L while Skywest 5
53 Keny156 : -100% correct on AA191, but the underlying cause of that was AA maintence using forklifts to support the engine instead of the harness which caused e
54 SXDFC : Would we be able to count WN 1248 (BWI-MDW)?, Which was the a/c that ovveran the runway in Chicago killing a 6 year old boy. I have my own reasons why
55 Tdscanuck : I'm not sure how much that one changed aviation, other than maybe pushing the installation of EMAS a little higher on everyone's radar. If you do a l
56 Starlionblue : IIRC the kosher procedure was to remove the engine, then the pylon (if needed). They removed the engine with the pylon as one unit, leading to unexpe
57 Rwessel : That’s correct, but the use of the forklift (or some other improper means of support) was needed as well. Since the forklift compressed and moved a
58 Ex52tech : I do not disagree with anything you posted, I just wanted to add this. How it saved time is arguable, but understandable if you look at the job from
59 TrijetsRMissed : The OP's question was did it influence aviatioin safety. I think having a stick shaker on both sides undoubtebly influences the safety, as the Captai
60 LongHauler : The stick shaker will operate regardless of who is flying. It simply advises a stall is impending, not a stall on one side of the aircraft, or if one
61 ZANL188 : The stickshaker problem on AA191 was that it was only mounted on the Captains control column & it lost power when the engine departed. Ergo no stick
62 LongHauler : I understand what you are saying, and that is an interesting theory. But as I read it, it was the power source of the stick shaker, rather than the si
63 ZANL188 : Wouldn't have made much sense to install a redundant stick shaker, with redundant signaling from redundant computers, without a redundant power sourc
64 TrijetsRMissed : Of course the pilots in the simulator tests were aware of the conditions of the airframe. But if the F/O had known the slats had retracted, what woul
65 Isitsafenow : Everything there is right on. I was hoping I would come to this on while reading... This one is number one in changing aviation. It totaled revamped
66 LongHauler : Thats just the point I was making. If the exercise in the simulator was to see if the aircraft could fly with the slats on one wing retracted, then t
67 SEPilot : Not only that, because of this crash all airspace over 18,000 ft became mandatory IFR, and all airliners were required to be on an IFR flight plan at
68 Isitsafenow : Also, MANDATORY RADAR to be on all commercial airliners by January 1962. This was ordered by the FAA after/as the probable cause was determined. I do
69 CHRISBA777ER : I think the big ones (IMHO of course) are: Tenerife - highlighted the vital importance of proper ATC procedures being adhered to by all. Comet - Highl
70 SEPilot : Except it wasn't the blades, it was the main disk. What is bothersome is that it was a defect in manufacture, and had been inspected several times (i
71 Tdscanuck : Although I agree that that one certainly did change aviation, it certainly shouldn't have. Pre 9/11, the correct response to a hijacking was to play
72 Starlionblue : Also envelope protection kept the aircraft from stalling and resulting in a worse crash.
73 HAWK21M : True.Thats when Sabotage & terrorism took a huge leap forward.....People were worried about flying,Everyone was a suspect based on name/colour/nation
74 Post contains links TrijetsRMissed : The aircraft was able to fly with slats on one wing, it's been documented. The slats only caused the stall because the pilots reduced the speed to V2
75 LongHauler : Procedures have NOT changed ... that is the point I am making. If the engine fails above V2+10, the Flight Directors, or autopilot if engaged, will s
76 BlatantEcho : Obviously this is just your opinion, I think that is complete FUD though. Tdscanuck laid out the facts decently well. Hijacking a plane with knives a
77 Warren84 : Isn't that related to the 2006 Heathrow plot where liquid explosives were concealed in drinks bottles?
78 TrijetsRMissed : LongHauler, why are you arguing with me? It's common knowledge that the procedures have changed. The procedure was not always V2+10. This not a matte
79 Starlionblue : I disagree. Terrorism is a manageable problem. It should certainly be fought but even the current threats are a long way from seriously threatening t
80 Pihero : No, you don't. Just speaking with the voice of reason and historical perspective (which you're generally quite good at ). In fact I would have entire
81 HAWK21M : Unfortunately I don't agree...The type of terrorist one deals with today is a person willing to eliminate himself in the process,its not very easy,th
82 Starlionblue : There is nothing new about today's terrorism apart from scale. Suicidal terrorism is certainly not new. I didn't say the problem was pleasant, or tha
83 Tdscanuck : Bingo. All this claptrap about "the terrorists are a threat to our way of life" are ridiculous...*we're* more of a threat to our way of life. It's po
84 LongHauler : Because you kept saying that who was flying the aircraft made a difference in the outcome, and that is not the case. I see you now acknowledge that i
85 Osiris30 : Big ol' checkmark on that one. I couldn't agree with what you wrote more if I had written it myself. Furthermore I would add, there are also better w
86 Pihero : I heartily agree. That's the tragedy of our societies. Historical perspective again...and again right on the mark.
87 Ba97 : As we digress and divert off the topic, I am of the opinion terrorism in most forms can be managed. It has in the past and can be now, and in the futu
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