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E170: No Anti-Ice On Certain Parts?  
User currently offlineAndyinPIT From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 320 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5952 times:

Last night (10/28) there were icing conditions out with snow showers. At about 11pm a E170 came in and as I was parking it, I noticed a build up of ice on the slats between the engine and the body of the aircraft. I went upstarirs and told the captain and he told me that it was designed like that, and also the tail doesn't have anti-ice. The ice on the slats was probably around 1/8 inch and on the tail it was built up to about 1/4. The captain explained that when aerodynamic tests were being done, it was determined that no deteriation in performace was noted. Now that might be the case, but why wouldn't they just put the anti-ice on the whole wing and tail? Doesn't it make more sense to be safe than sorry?

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4022 posts, RR: 33
Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5918 times:

Most airliners are the same. Wing deicing on the slats outboard of the engine only. Tail deicing has been missing for years now.
B737NG is also missing deicing on the outboard slats.


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5901 times:



Quoting AndyinPIT (Thread starter):
Wing deicing on the slats outboard of the engine only.



Quoting AndyinPIT (Thread starter):
Doesn't it make more sense to be safe than sorry?

Every Boeing, McD or Airbus I've flown is the same. With the LE devices extended there is NO wing heat at all. No tail surface had heat either!!!

Has never been a problem.


User currently offlineAndyinPIT From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 320 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5895 times:

Hmm. Thanks for the responses. Just odd I've never seen it on the Boeing or Airbus. We had each in last night and didn't notice any ice build up.

User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5843 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 2):
Every Boeing, McD or Airbus I've flown is the same. With the LE devices extended there is NO wing heat at all.

That doesn't sound right...why do they bother putting extendable air ducts into the slats if they're not going to be used?

Tom.


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5814 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 4):
That doesn't sound right...why do they bother putting extendable air ducts into the slats if they're not going to be used?

You beat me to it...  Wink


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5767 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 4):
That doesn't sound right...why do they bother putting extendable air ducts into the slats if they're not going to be used?



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 5):

You beat me to it...

Please re-read what I wrote. With the LE devices extended there is no heat for that area. With the LE devices retracted, the area is heated.

The simple reason is the airfoil is designed so ice if it does build up will break off. On the 727,757,A320, DC10, B747 and B744 it's all the same. In 25 years of flying those aircraft, I can count on one hand and have fingers left over the number of times I have used wing heat.


User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4022 posts, RR: 33
Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5727 times:

Come on, aircraft are different.
Phil flies the B747. B747 has no wing deicing with leading edge flaps extended.
A lot of aircraft do. The B757 and A320 and B737 all have Slat heating which works whether the slats are retracted or extended. but not on all slats, and definitely not on the inboard Kruger flaps on the B737. In most aircraft MEL, wing deicing valves are only allowed inop when there are no icing conditions.
Having said that, some aircraft don't really need wing deicing. The B757 is one. Boeing proved in flight test that it wasn't required, but had to fit it anyway. Ask any B757 pilot if he uses wing antice.


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5646 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 6):
Please re-read what I wrote. With the LE devices extended there is no heat for that area. With the LE devices retracted, the area is heated.

I did. If you only heat the LE when the devices are retraced, there's no need for the extendable air duct...you'd just butt the air duct up against the retracted slat to provide air when the slat is retracted (like the air coupler between the frame and door in some cars). The extendable duct is a part that adds weight and only has a purpose of you're deicing an extended slat. That fact alone very strongly suggests that it can deice while extended.

Tom.


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5629 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 8):


Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 6):
Please re-read what I wrote. With the LE devices extended there is no heat for that area. With the LE devices retracted, the area is heated.

I did. If you only heat the LE when the devices are retraced, there's no need for the extendable air duct...you'd just butt the air duct up against the retracted slat to provide air when the slat is retracted (like the air coupler between the frame and door in some cars). The extendable duct is a part that adds weight and only has a purpose of you're deicing an extended slat. That fact alone very strongly suggests that it can deice while extended.

Tom.

Tom, I can assure you when you have the flaps extended on the 747 or 744 the bleed air is dumped overboard. I am stretching my memory but IIRC all Boeings are pretty much the same. But, I am absolutely certain about the 747 family.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5619 times:



Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 1):
B737NG is also missing deicing on the outboard slats.

The B757 has a similiar situation too.

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 7):
Having said that, some aircraft don't really need wing deicing. The B757 is one. Boeing proved in flight test that it wasn't required, but had to fit it anyway

Any more details available.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4022 posts, RR: 33
Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5608 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 10):
Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 7):
Having said that, some aircraft don't really need wing deicing. The B757 is one. Boeing proved in flight test that it wasn't required, but had to fit it anyway

Any more details available.
regds
MEL

No sorry only hearsay.
One of our B757 captains was involved with the B757 development. He once told me that they covered the leading edges with plastic bags full of gell to simulate the worst ice formations, then flew the aircraft. He said that the simulated ice was unnoticeable on the handling. we were having a problem with a wing antice valve, and he said don't waste your energy, we very rarely use it.


User currently offlineAndyinPIT From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 320 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5584 times:

Thanks for the responses guys....after working with these planes for 4+ years on the ramp I'm still learning new things every day!

User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5511 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 9):
Tom, I can assure you when you have the flaps extended on the 747 or 744 the bleed air is dumped overboard. I am stretching my memory but IIRC all Boeings are pretty much the same. But, I am absolutely certain about the 747 family.

This appears to be a uniquely 747 phenomenon among Boeings...the 727, 737, 757, 767, and 777 all have telescoping ducts between the leading edge and the slat, allowing anti-ice of the slat whether it's extended or retracted.

Tom.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5445 times:



Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 11):
He once told me that they covered the leading edges with plastic bags full of gell to simulate the worst ice formations, then flew the aircraft

Still trying to visualise this.
What about Wind tunnell tests?
regds
MEL.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5041 posts, RR: 43
Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5367 times:

Another unusual quirk with respect to the E170/E190 series is that the approach speeds are adjusted when using full flaps for landing if the ice detectors detected ice at any point in the flight. This is the adjust for the ice that could possibly be on the tail, and undeiced wing sections.

It always seems a bit odd to adjust for ice detected on climb out from YYZ, then land at PHX when its 105 degrees and use "ice speeds" for landing! (there is a reason for it, but I wont bore you with it here)



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2832 posts, RR: 45
Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5151 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 2):
Every Boeing, McD or Airbus I've flown is the same. With the LE devices extended there is NO wing heat at all. No tail surface had heat either!!!

I don't know what all Phil has flown, but some aircraft DO have tail heat and LE heat that works with LED's extended; most common example: any DC-9 or MD-80/90 ever built.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 6):
Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 5):

You beat me to it...

Please re-read what I wrote. With the LE devices extended there is no heat for that area. With the LE devices retracted, the area is heated.

That IS true for the 747.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 8):
I did. If you only heat the LE when the devices are retraced, there's no need for the extendable air duct...you'd just butt the air duct up against the retracted slat to provide air when the slat is retracted (like the air coupler between the frame and door in some cars). The extendable duct is a part that adds weight and only has a purpose of you're deicing an extended slat. That fact alone very strongly suggests that it can deice while extended.

Again, I don't know what all Phil has flown here, but like Tom is saying, SOME aircraft DO have effective LE heat regardless of Slat (or LE Flap) position; some also have tail heat. A very few even have airfoil anti ice that works on the ground as well as in flight (some modified DC-9-10 series).

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 9):
Tom, I can assure you when you have the flaps extended on the 747 or 744 the bleed air is dumped overboard.

That is true; I understand Tom's point to be that some aircraft have this feature and some don't, though it's possible I have misinterpreted what he's saying.


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5134 times:



Quoting PGNCS (Reply 16):

That is true; I understand Tom's point to be that some aircraft have this feature and some don't, though it's possible I have misinterpreted what he's saying.

That's exactly what I was saying.

With regard to Puget Sound-heritage Boeing's, the 747 is the odd duck out. Most of them do have anti-ice with the LE devices extended.

Tom.


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