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Reconfirming Take Off Clearence On Rwy  
User currently offlineBaw2198 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 637 posts, RR: 4
Posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3978 times:

Hi guys,

I kindof curious if something has changed in coporate policy within the last year with regional carriers here in the US. I'm not going to name the airlines. Within the last year, there seems to be an increase in the number of times the PIC is reconfirming takeoff clearence once already having been issued the clearence at the hold short line and the pilot reading back the clearence at the hold short line. Now what happens next I guess worries me, both as a controller and as a 10 year private pilot. Why, if you have already readback take off clearence from the hold short line, would you ask for reconfirmation while being on the runway? The timing to me just seems off. Why wait until your pointing down the runway to confirm takeoff clearence vs asking before entering the runway enviroment?

I appreciate your proffessional inputs on this.

MODS--> please keep in techops

Thanks,

BAW2198


"And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green
22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePilotboi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2366 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3958 times:

That is a good question. It does sound a bit silly to ask to confirm once you're already out there. But perhaps they want to confirm that it is a TAKEOFF clearance they received and not just a position and hold clearance. That's really the only reason I can think of. But even those two clearances are very different words. So I don't know.

User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10335 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3957 times:

Could it be, in the wake of the crash at Lexington, Kentucky, that these airlines are moreso confirming that they're on the correct runway, rather than that they've been cleared for takeoff?

Would make it a lot easier to read the runway numbers (and obviously, to verify via compass) if you're sitting on the runway already lined up, rather than on a taxiway perpendicular to it.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineTheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 22 hours ago) and read 3845 times:

Like the previous poster said, this is done to make sure we were actually cleared for takeoff and not into position and hold.

Just before takeoff is a very busy time. We have to run the before takeoff checklist, clear the runway of traffic, and advise the flight attendants.

What occurs is that at some airports we're cleared for takeoff and some days we're asked to taxi into position and hold. The checklists are run whenever you enter the runway no matter what, so that pattern is the same, so it becomes routine, which is bad.

When a pilot flies into numerous airports (regional pilots tend to fly more segments than mainline) in a trip with different dynamics and clearances, sometimes trying to remember if its a position and hold or a takeoff clearance, especially when there is a plane just rotating ahead can get a bit tough.

As a controller, I'd expect that if we aren't sure of the clearance you'd want us to ask. I can think of all kinds of problems that could occur if we assumed the opposite clearance.

We generally won't taxi onto the runway without a clearance, but whether the clearance is position and hold or for takeoff can get a bit fuzzy.

Checko



"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 21 hours ago) and read 3820 times:

I think an increasing number of companies are requiring a confirmation any time either pilot is not completely clear as to the clearence. So if someone in the cockpit says "huh?", they will probably request a confirmation. No longer are pilots taking the other's word for it when it comes to clearence.


Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlinePilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2539 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 21 hours ago) and read 3810 times:

because we're tired, we fly 4+ legs on some days...and there are similar callsigns, and we forget if we THINK we were cleared, or if we really were cleared, or we might confuse the previous leg with the current one because we're focused...it's a great thing to do, no shame in it....

and plus after the comair was it? that took off on the wrong runway, you emphasize the runway identifier and cross check your compass when you're rolling....chicago, madrid, all possible airports to taxi into or across the wrong runway in bad weather...



The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4672 posts, RR: 77
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 3 hours ago) and read 3652 times:
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This thread should be put next to the one about the "best ATC".
1/- In an ideal world, and with ICAO R/T procedures, that confirmation should not be needed : On the tower frequency there are only TWO instances in which the word "cleared" is applicable : a takeoff clearance and a landing clearance. Everything else is an instruction.
Ex : taxi to holding position and wait...taxi to holding point B3...hold short...etc... compared to : XXX, cleared for takeoff..,..YYY, cleared to land.... So that in the pilot's mind, the word "takeoff" is associated with "cleared for takeoff" and there is no other way.

2/- The pilot's acknowledgment - or read-back - is a further confirmation of the clearance, so that a normal exchange will be thus :
"-XXX taxi into position and wait."
"-Taxi into position and wait, XXX"
.................................................
"-XXX, cleared for take off. contact departure on 123.45"
"-XXX is cleared for takeoff. Departure 123.45. Bye"

But as Pilotaydin writes, sometimes we need to confirm that we are the addressee of a takeoff clearance...In Europe, it's quite rare.


Once again, why not generalise ICAO R/T procedures ?



Contrail designer
User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 1 hour ago) and read 3618 times:



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 4):
I think an increasing number of companies are requiring a confirmation any time either pilot is not completely clear as to the clearence. So if someone in the cockpit says "huh?", they will probably request a confirmation. No longer are pilots taking the other's word for it when it comes to clearence.

Completely nailed it. In my cockpit, anytime either one of us says anything such as "Did he say..?" or "Were we cleared for...?", it is an automatic show stopper until we get confirmation.

It is a lot smaller of a deal to accidentally taxi into position and then realize your mistake rather than it is to accidentally take off while traffic is crossing down-field. At many airports, controllers are giving clearances for multiple runways with similar names (ex 32R and 32L) and occasionally airplanes with similar callsigns are involved.

Nobody has ever died and no airplanes have ever crashed because nothing was done and confirmation was requested of an instruction. The opposite cannot be said....


User currently offlineDufo From Slovenia, joined May 1999, 810 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 1 hour ago) and read 3611 times:

In my current company we use landing lights as an additional reminder regarding takeoff and taxi lights regarding landing clearances. A confirming factor for those occasional uncertain moments.


I seriously think I just creamed my pants without any influence from any outside variables.
User currently offlineTheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3532 times:



Quoting Pihero (Reply 6):
1/- In an ideal world, and with ICAO R/T procedures, that confirmation should not be needed : On the tower frequency there are only TWO instances in which the word "cleared" is applicable : a takeoff clearance and a landing clearance. Everything else is an instruction.

I don't think the ICAO procedures would fix the root issue. The confirmation occurs because of confusion between routines and/or fatigue.

US controllers will say, "XXX position and hold runway 35", ICAO would only change that "hold" to "wait". Pilots read it back, run their checklists, look up and because its their fifth leg of the day, they can't remember if they are "cleared for takeoff" or "position and hold", so they ask.

In my experience, phraseology has never had a hand in it, but my memory has.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 6):
In Europe, it's quite rare.

I hope you're not implying that European pilots never make mistakes, or worse, never ask for confirmation when there is ambiguity in the cockpit as to the meaning of a clearance...

Checko



"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
User currently offlineAtct From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2349 posts, RR: 38
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3522 times:

I have seen some pilots above use the wrong phraseology when referring to Position and Hold. The term "Cleared", according to the 7110.65, shall never be used for anything other than a landing or takeoff clearance. To say "we were cleared into position and hold" is a dangerous statement and should never be thought of as a clearance. It is a taxi instruction..

"JetLink 2454, Wind 350 at 4, Rnway 15L, Position and Hold"

as opposed to a clearance

"JetLink 2454, Wind 350 at 4, turn left heading 115, runway 15L, Cleared for Take Off"

If a controller ever tells you "Cleared into Position and Hold" or "Cleared ACROSS Runway XXX", I would immediately verify the statement from the controller and respond with proper phraseology.

As a pilot and controller I fail to see the ability to confuse the two statements. I have worked in the Part 121/125/135 environment and understand checklists but I believe it is pure wrecklessness on behalf of the flightcrew to confuse the terms "Position and Hold" and "Cleared for Take Off". I have had a pilot start take off roll when I had yet to say the words "Cleared For Takeoff" and as one who has seen it first-hand, it is a dangerous operation that will kill you or someone else. Checklists are great tools if used wisely. Dont ever let a checklist or ATC instruction for that matter, get in the way of FLYING the airplane. Many people have collided with other airplanes and flown perfectly good airplanes into the ground running checklists.

Keep the blue side up and green between.

ATCT

[Edited 2008-11-21 13:19:45]


"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2808 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3495 times:



Quoting Atct (Reply 10):
As a pilot and controller I fail to see the ability to confuse the two statements. I have worked in the Part 121/125/135 environment and understand checklists but I believe it is pure wrecklessness on behalf of the flightcrew to confuse the terms "Position and Hold" and "Cleared for Take Off".

It's not confusion that's the problem, it's complacency and fatigue. A typical RJ crew will probably do around 15 takeoffs on a 4 day trip. Turboprop crews will likely be closer 20 in that same time. It gets easy to just fall into a pattern. Hear the callsign, read it back, check for traffic, do your flow, run the checklist, taxi onto the runway. Over and over and over. All those takeoffs can easily start to blur together as the day and the trip wears on.



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4672 posts, RR: 77
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3470 times:
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Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 9):
US controllers will say, "XXX position and hold runway 35", ICAO would only change that "hold" to "wait". Pilots read it back, run their checklists, look up and because its their fifth leg of the day, they can't remember if they are "cleared for takeoff" or "position and hold", so they ask.

I understand that there are many SOPs but on most of the airlines I've flown with - or seen the operations of -, the Takeoff checklist should be completed before one approaches the runway, thus freeing the aircrew for R/T watch in probably the most dangerous part of the flight.
The "Cleared for takeoff" is , procedure-wise, just a trigger to turn the landing lights on, which is a further confirmation of the clearance.
To be busy with aircraft config and pre-takeoff drills while at the holding point is asking for missing radio calls ( which you confirm to be the case).
There is a lot more to the ICAO "Wait" instrution than just a difference with "Hold". The main point of the change is to do away with the possible confusion with holding on the runway ( "waiting" for the takeoff clearance) and getting to the "Hold-(ing)" position before the runway.

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 9):
I hope you're not implying that European pilots never make mistakes, or worse, never ask for confirmation when there is ambiguity in the cockpit as to the meaning of a clearance...

Not at all. In Europe in general, ICAO procedures are rather strictly followed and ambiguities are rarer than in the US. That said, there are still moments when one can forget and to not de-confuse an ambiguity would be sheer folly.

Quoting Atct (Reply 10):
Dont ever let a checklist or ATC instruction for that matter, get in the way of FLYING the airplane. Many people have collided with other airplanes and flown perfectly good airplanes into the ground running checklists.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 



Contrail designer
User currently offlineZappbrannigan From Australia, joined Oct 2008, 247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3436 times:

I've done it a couple of times recently, and both times it's been when I've received departure instructions halfway through a checklist, followed by a line-up clearance, followed by the takeoff clearance halfway through another checklist, all before I've reached the holding point. After that busy 3 minutes of copying instructions, running checks and reading back instructions, you're lined up and ready to go, but have a niggling little 1% doubt that you actually received the takeoff clearance and not just departure instructions and a line-up clearance.

As I'm flying mainly single-pilot ops, I thought it a far better option to take 5 seconds to confirm the clearance with the tower instead of running the slim chance of massive embarrassment after aborting a takeoff for something so avoidable. I imagine it'd be the same when there was any significant level of doubt in a multi-crew environment.

Not sure how there could be much ambiguity in a takeoff clearance - I could only see a confirmation of clearance occurring when an instruction was read back but not fully absorbed, which is a human trait and not a fault of ATC behaviour.


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3402 times:

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 11):
It's not confusion that's the problem, it's complacency and fatigue. A typical RJ crew will probably do around 15 takeoffs on a 4 day trip. Turboprop crews will likely be closer 20 in that same time. It gets easy to just fall into a pattern.

Oh the poor RJ crew!!! I'm tossing the BS flag in your statement above. On a 4 day trip any domestic crew (airline/corporate) is subject to a large number of takeoffs. If that is creating any type of confusion, complacency, and/fatigue maybe they should get another career!

LISTEN to the frequency..and like Flyf15 says:

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 7):
anytime either one of us says anything such as "Did he say..?" or "Were we cleared for...?", it is an automatic show stopper until we get confirmation.

Oh, just as a note, a controller in a moderatly busy approach contro facility issues about 4 or more approach clearances each hour during an 8 hour shift, 32 a day, or during an hour departure push, issuing takeoff clearance to more than 20 aircraft........and also must correct any readback mistakes...seems the fatigue should be HUGE using the comparison of

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 11):

!!!!!!!

Quoting Atct (Reply 10):


Nicely done Sir

[Edited 2008-11-21 20:19:49]

[Edited 2008-11-21 20:21:46]


Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2808 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3382 times:



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 14):
Oh the poor RJ crew!!! I'm tossing the BS flag in your statement above. On a 4 day trip any domestic crew (airline/corporate) is subject to a large number of takeoffs. If that is creating any type of confusion, complacency, and/fatigue maybe they should get another career!

Because controllers never get complacent, confused, or fatigued.  Yeah sure

Pilots double check their takeoff clearance for the same reason I've had controllers give me the same altitude assignment three times. They aren't quite 100% sure and want to make sure they get it right. That's called being a professional.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 14):
Oh, just as a note, a controller in a moderatly busy approach contro facility issues about 4 or more approach clearances each hour during an 8 hour shift, 32 a day, or during an hour departure push, issuing takeoff clearance to more than 20 aircraft........and also must correct any readback mistakes...seems the fatigue should be HUGE using the comparison of

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 11):

!!!!!!!

The gaping flaw in your logic is to assume that pilot fatigue is caused solely by reading back takeoff, approach, and landing clearances. Just as I know ATC does much more than talk on the radio, I'm sure you are aware that pilots do much more than talk to you.



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlineLarSPL From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3352 times:

what worries me are the pilots who do NOT double check, when they feel so.
i guesstimate that on a normal leg there is atleast 1 or 2 atc things i have to reconfirm..
either a flightlevel, heading or whatever.
but as Assume is the mother off...I prefer to say 'sorry I have forgotten, please confirm'.
(re)confirmation is one of the basic good airmanship things..



facebook.com/ddaclassicairlines
User currently offlineIahflyr From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3329 times:



Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 15):
Pilots double check their takeoff clearance for the same reason I've had controllers give me the same altitude assignment three times. They aren't quite 100% sure and want to make sure they get it right. That's called being a professional.

 checkmark   checkmark  Absolutely correct and done the very thing myself but if I was complacent I would not ever have verified the correct altitude.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 15):
The gaping flaw in your logic is to assume that pilot fatigue is caused solely by reading back takeoff, approach, and landing clearances. Just as I know ATC does much more than talk on the radio, I'm sure you are aware that pilots do much more than talk to you.

I'm not making any assumption! My issue is with anyone being the least bit complacent in this industry for any reason. I don't care how many tasks you are doing there no room for it IMHO. I don't see that logic being flawed, but I could be wrong.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineTheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3273 times:



Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 17):

I'm not making any assumption! My issue is with anyone being the least bit complacent in this industry for any reason. I don't care how many tasks you are doing there no room for it IMHO. I don't see that logic being flawed, but I could be wrong.

With all due respect, you are wrong. This isn't about complacency, its about doing multiple tasks at once and making damn sure I got everything right.

Of course, pilots and controllers never make mistakes, we always get it right the first time.

...cough...cough..Lexington...cough...cough...

I'm sure you never forget anything yourself and of course as a controller you'd never reconfirm that you gave someone a speed assignment or crossing restriction or a takeoff clearance.

Wouldn't true complacency be just assuming the clearance and just taking off?

Checko



"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2808 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3259 times:



Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 17):
My issue is with anyone being the least bit complacent in this industry for any reason. I don't care how many tasks you are doing there no room for it IMHO. I don't see that logic being flawed, but I could be wrong.

I agree that complacency isn't a good thing, however nobody is perfect and that's why it is something that must be fought against every day. Whenever you have a repetitive task it becomes easy to just run through the motions, to get disengaged from the task at hand and let your mind drift to other issues, only to realize you don't remember what you just did or said a few seconds earlier. I've found that this kind of complacency becomes more likely when fatigue is thrown in the mix, making it far easier to get distracted from your task.

Again, I'm not endorsing complacency. We are all human and this is real issue that must be dealt with every day by pilots around the world. I'm not talking about the kind of complacency that borders on gross negligence either.

As to the original issue of reconfirming takeoff clearances, I probably have to reconfirm around once a month. I would guess about half are due to the ATC transmission being partially blocked. Another few are due to simply not fully hearing the transmission due to the reading of a checklist. Maybe a couple of times a year do I have to reconfirm because either myself or the captain momentarily didn't have our head 100% in the game.

Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 17):
Absolutely correct and done the very thing myself but if I was complacent I would not ever have verified the correct altitude

I'd argue that not reconfirming the altitude if you have any doubt is closer to gross negligence than complacency, just as taking off without being positive of your clearance would be.



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlineP3Orion From United States of America, joined May 2006, 544 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3220 times:

I have absolutely no problems with a pilot asking for verification of a clearance or an instruction. Be it cleared for take-off, position and hold, a runway crossing or the taxi route. In fact, when a pilot does ask, I try to say "thank you for checking." Remember, it is better to be safe than sorry.


"Did he say strap in or strap on?"
User currently offlineZappbrannigan From Australia, joined Oct 2008, 247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3204 times:



Quoting Atct (Reply 10):
As a pilot and controller I fail to see the ability to confuse the two statements. I have worked in the Part 121/125/135 environment and understand checklists but I believe it is pure wrecklessness on behalf of the flightcrew to confuse the terms "Position and Hold" and "Cleared for Take Off".

I don't think anybody in this thread, or in their right mind, would confuse a takeoff clearance with a position and hold ("line-up" here in Oz) instruction, and this is not really the point of the thread IMO. The point is it's quite possible during a period of high cockpit activity prior to takeoff to have a level of doubt as to what you were cleared, or instructed, to do a short period of time ago. Not what the instruction meant, but what instruction was actually issued. If it's happening every second flight, then you should start worrying about yourself - but to say it should never happen is to remove the acknowledgement that we're human.

I've had a few controllers issue taxi instructions when I was requesting a start or airways clearance - I don't for a second believe that the controller doesn't know the difference between them - it's because they are human, have issued 100 such instructions that day, and have a small blank moment. If there are people here who have worked as pilots or controllers for years and have never had a moment of doubt or confusion in a normally routine task - well, my hat goes off to you.


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3185 times:



Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 18):
This isn't about complacency, its about doing multiple tasks at once and making damn sure I got everything right.

Yeah, a pilot and a controller never do multiple tasks at once!  Silly

When I fly I verify just about everything I do because I am stupid, when I sit on the other side of the mic I do the same for the exact reason, to make damn sure I got it all correct. No argument here!

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 18):
I'm sure you never forget anything yourself and of course as a controller you'd never reconfirm that you gave someone a speed assignment or crossing restriction or a takeoff clearance.

Oh no, never reconfirm a thing. Are you kidding, I reconfirm quite often and never said differently. Not sure why your statement but okay, got your drift.

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 20):
I have absolutely no problems with a pilot asking for verification of a clearance or an instruction. Be it cleared for take-off, position and hold, a runway crossing or the taxi route. In fact, when a pilot does ask, I try to say "thank you for checking." Remember, it is better to be safe than sorry.

Totally correct. Always tell a crew thanks for verifying things and helping close the loop to avoid errors.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 19):
I'd argue that not reconfirming the altitude if you have any doubt is closer to gross negligence than complacency

I would offer rather than negligence, more cocky...the person thinking no way I'd have missed that altitude assigment! Ego has a way of surfacing quite often. Meaning the person who believes all the things they say/hear is correct 100% of the time, of course then they'd have no reason to reconfirm anything.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
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