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How Hard Is It To Fly One?  
User currently offlineBruce From United States of America, joined May 1999, 5049 posts, RR: 15
Posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3471 times:

How difficult is it to "fly" a 767 and 757, visually. I mean, could a terrorist with no aviation experience actually take the stick and guide the jet down to the correct altitude and on the correct heading to hit such a target as the WTC?


Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFlight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3393 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3166 times:

They must of had aviation experence.

User currently offlineBruce From United States of America, joined May 1999, 5049 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3150 times:

So they may have overpowered the real pilots before getting on the plane - took their uniforms... what happened to the "real" pilots who were supposed to be in the cockpit?

I think it had to happend BEFORE pushback...because in the case of the IAD flight, as soon as the plane took off it veered off and headed to the pentagon. There was no time **after** takeoff to storm the cockpit and take over.

If this is true, then it is an inexcusable lapse of security.

Now: why wouldn't the co-pilot notice that his Pilot looked a little strange, a little nervous?



Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3132 times:

Chances are they did it shortly after take off, I highly doubt they did it before the flight.
Iain


User currently offlineMax Power From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3123 times:

I think it would be a simple task to get thru the "cardboard door", two to three could easily get in in short order after take off. Strange they picked a aircraft with a common type rating. Could have even been to school at Seattle Boeing as contract customers and rented the simulator for some familarization with their "own" instructors. Quite possible. Time will tell. By the way, it's a very easy aircraft to fly, just a big Piper cub.. Max

User currently offlineIwantanl1011 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 151 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3067 times:

My suspicion is they were trained in the type.... Maneuvering the aircraft to arrive at the WTC at the proper altitude, then apply full thrust prior to impact (without gaining altitute) would require practice and
familiarity with the a.c


User currently offlineNotar520AC From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1606 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3017 times:

They were probably trained, but to me, when I fly the chopper & fixed wings it's only a little more complicated than driving.


BMW - The Ultimate Driving Machine
User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6597 posts, RR: 55
Reply 7, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3013 times:

I heard that they switched the transponders off, so they must have had some training. The average Joe would not even know what a transponder was, let alone where it was in the cockpit and how to turn it off.

User currently offlineEal401 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2997 times:

Could that be true, after all, they tracked them all on radar up until impact.

User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6837 posts, RR: 75
Reply 9, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2963 times:

The planes were at cruising when it was taken over by the hijackers. Then after securing the planes, they set their headings to their targets... This means, they know how to operate the RNAV/FMC and autopilot functions.

With regards to the one hitting the pentagon, the wife of the US solicitor general was on the plane and she called saying the pilots and passengers were told to move to the back of the plane...

Another plane reported the hijackers used small knives and said get out of the cockpit or they'll blow the plane.

Sad day indeed...

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineCx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6597 posts, RR: 55
Reply 10, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2918 times:

Eal401,

Turning the transponders off merely removes much of the information provided to the ATC screens, however, it does not make the aircraft vanish. Primary radar would still track the aircraft position though.


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4194 posts, RR: 37
Reply 11, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2891 times:

Not only did they know how to operate the FMS and transponders, but they also were pretty skilled in flying the plane.. they were down on the deck with those things and manuevering around. This probably wasnt formal type training in the airplanes, but just specific for this "mission."


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2859 times:

Would you need to know how to use the FMC, couldn't they not just turn of the a/p and use GPS to find NY.
Iain


User currently offlineCYKA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2852 times:

They also could have tuned into one of the many VOR's in the new york area and aproximated a radial that would take them into the city.

User currently offlineBrett80211 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 266 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2835 times:

I just saw on the news that 2 of the Hijackers had went to florida a year ago and got their Commercial Linceses. So I think that these people had known what they were doing.

User currently offlineAvionic From Denmark, joined Nov 1999, 111 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2801 times:

Some training must have been required...but the striking fact is that they "chose" similar cockpitts as the 757 and 767 has....whether they have hands on experience or they trained on fs2000 and maybe even with 767pic addon (which i might add is as close as you can get to a real 767 with all panels working and functioning FMC), I don´t know but with proper training on these few things everybody can acquire anybody can fly a 767/757 on autopilot....the tough part comes when the autopilot is off....whether they flew themselves into the buildings or if they let the autopilot do it all the way in ....by the way any 767/757 out there who know if the autopilot is capable of being commanded into terrain? .....Well let us see when they find the CVR/DFDR´s what happened....terrible....terrible......

User currently offlineAjaaron From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2790 times:

No need for FMS training - GPS, etc.

How does this sound:

1. Select AIRPORTS to show on EHSI

2. Adjust heading bug to fly towards KEWR (Newark), and engage in heading select mode

3. You'll become visual with WTC from many miles out- and visibility looked very good yesterday

4. Descend visually

5. Take out autopilot when close to target and fly into building

They didn't need to know about FMS, GPS, but I guess they knew how to turn off transponder - easy to learn on any PPL course, and points 1-5 learn on FS 2000 with 767 PIC -

Does all this sound reasonable ?

It would be interesting to hear your thoughts


User currently offlineAjaaron From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2790 times:

Topic: Here's The Easiest Way To Do It...

Username: Ajaaron
Posted 09-13-01 01:16 and read 1 times.
No need for FMS training - GPS, etc.

How does this sound:

1. Select AIRPORTS to show on EHSI

2. Adjust heading bug to fly towards KEWR (Newark), and engage in heading select mode

3. You'll become visual with WTC from many miles out- and visibility looked very good yesterday

4. Descend visually

5. Take out autopilot when close to target and fly into building

They didn't need to know about FMS, GPS, but I guess they knew how to turn off transponder - easy to learn on any PPL course, and points 1-5 learn on FS 2000 with 767 PIC -

Does all this sound reasonable ?

It would be interesting to hear your thoughts




User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2778 times:

Ever heard of a sectional and a VFR day?
Ever flown a visual into EWR?


Zero automation was required; just immense hatred.


User currently offlineAJ From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 2389 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2753 times:

Media are saying that at least two of the suspects attended a Flight Safety B757/767 course at Vero Beach, Florida. They knew what they were doing BIG TIME!

User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2715 times:

As to the original intent or question of the post, I don't know how easy it would be to just take the stick and handle the aircraft.

I guess as long as you don't stall the aircraft, or crash it into the ground...if you don't adjust the throttle you could handle it, although it would be very erratic.



NO URLS in signature
User currently offline242 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 498 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2711 times:

The 767 isn't all that hard to fly. I've got several hours in 762/3/4 full motion sims, and even I, a zero time novice (with extensive system knowledge), was able to get off the ground, fly around,and land (very sloppy) my first try. If these people had any flight training at all, it would have been a piece of cake to do what they did on 9/11.

User currently offlineMax Power From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2657 times:

Looks like I hit the nail on the head in my above post? Looks like "time" is telling...

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