Rouge From Mexico, joined Mar 2008, 13 posts, RR: 0 Posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5323 times:
Hi there!
Mexicana de Aviacion will start their long howls!
This is the first time we'll see an airbus 330 in a Mexican airline. I don't know how many flight attendants work in those planes in other airlines. Can you tell me how do yo do it lately for your long howl's in the A330-200?
Thank you!
ANITIX87 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 3233 posts, RR: 14 Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5294 times:
It depends on the airline's seating arrangement. For an airline with three classes, like LX, I think a typical long-haul flight probably has two for first class, 4 for business class, and 8 for economy class, so around 14 total. I know there quite a few members of flight crews here who can probably answer better, as I'm just guessing.
TIS
www.stellaryear.com: Canon EOS 50D, Canon EOS 5DMkII, Sigma 50mm 1.4, Canon 24-70 2.8L II, Canon 100mm 2.8L, Canon 100-4
Rouge From Mexico, joined Mar 2008, 13 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5199 times:
i know about the legal minimums, i guess some airlines that already have those planes assign the number of crew members depending on the service, that's what i want to know precisely.
Do you have seats to rest? or a kind of beds?
Zkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4739 posts, RR: 10 Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5164 times:
QF operates its Intl configured A332 with 9 crew (L1P, R1P, R1A, L/R2, L/R3, L/R4). Its configured 36J, 199Y. 4 Crew for J (incl CSM), and 5 crew for Y.
Rouge From Mexico, joined Mar 2008, 13 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5164 times:
Quoting Kleinsim (Reply 4): wherever they're flying their new metal?
Mexicana will go to London, Madrid and Sao Paolo at the first time in 2009. That's a grate step to go for them! For long time they expected to do those flights, in fact they were waiting for China but Aeromexico took it...
Bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 8 Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5110 times:
Quoting Zeke (Reply 7): Normally it depends on the number of doors, you need one for each emergency exit door.
The FAA requirement is based upon number of seats, and as Tristar mentioned, is basically one F/A for every 50 seats, or portion of 50 (i.e. 102 seats needs 3 F/As).
If the evacuation demonstrations for certification used more F/As then the FAA required by regs, then that number must be used. There are other exceptions etc...
It may well be based on number of exits in other countries, but I cannot imagine for example, a 45 seat RJ ever requiring 3 F/As, just because there are 3 exits.
I assume there is a correlation between number of seats and number of exits anyway, so there is an indirect relationship.
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
Zeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 7727 posts, RR: 73 Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5081 times:
Quoting Bond007 (Reply 8):
I assume there is a correlation between number of seats and number of exits anyway, so there is an indirect relationship.
I know about the 50 seat rule (some countries also have a 36 seat rule), I always thought that was to capture high density configurations, and the number of floor level exits to capture the low density configurations. The minimum number of crew required to be the greater of the two requirements.
Think about the SQ A340-500 (total of 100 business seats installed), 8 floor level exists, we would need to have minimum of 8 cabin crew, one for each door. The rational is that you need a trained crew member to operate the door and activate the slide if needed. That does not apply to over wing exits like on a RJ or 737.
Are you suggesting the FAA would say you just need 2 cabin crew for a 100 seat A340-500 ? we always would have to go for the higher number, not lower.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
Zeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 7727 posts, RR: 73 Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5038 times:
Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 10): We operate the B734 with 149 seats and 3 cabin crew on low business class routes.
I am uneasy hearing that sort of thing. Cabin crew are on the aircraft for the safety of the passengers, not for serving them food/drink. If you needed to evacuate, you could possibly have one good door not opened as not crew is there to open it.
This is the sort of wording we have in the regs here ...
Required Complement
The complement specified will be that calculated in accordance with Article 18(7)(c)
of the Air Navigation (Hong Kong) Order 1995, or for wide bodied aircraft one Cabin
Crew member per door that is designated an Emergency Exit, whichever is the higher.
In exceptional circumstances the complement may be reduced and will become that
specified in a Permission granted in accordance with the provision to Article 18(7).
Article 18(7)(c) says
(c) On a flight to which this paragraph applies, there shall be carried not less than one cabin attendant for every fifty, or fraction of fifty passenger seats installed in the aircraft:
So for us, on the A330, the minimum would be 8, becuase if the 8 doors.
[Edited 2008-12-05 06:19:39]
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
Bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 8 Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5027 times:
Quoting Zeke (Reply 9): Are you suggesting the FAA would say you just need 2 cabin crew for a 100 seat A340-500 ? we always would have to go for the higher number, not lower.
Well, this is where the number of F/As used in the evacuation demonstration could come into play. The airline must use the number of F/As used in the demonstration for the aircraft's "maximum seating configuration". So if the airline has other A340-500s in higher-density seating configs, say 310 pax, and they used 7 F/As during the demonstration, then they must use 7 F/As in a reduced seating configuration.
FAR Part 121.391
You cannot depart if ::
"(1) In its maximum seating capacity configuration with fewer flight attendants than the number used during the emergency evacuation demonstration; or
(2) In any reduced seating capacity configuration with fewer flight attendants than the number required by paragraph (a) of this section for that seating capacity plus the number of flight attendants used during the emergency evacuation demonstration that were in excess of those required under paragraph (a) of this section. "
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
Zeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 7727 posts, RR: 73 Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5024 times:
Quoting Bond007 (Reply 12): Well, this is where the number of F/As used in the evacuation demonstration could come into play. The airline must use the number of F/As used in the demonstration for the aircraft's "maximum seating configuration". So if the airline has other A340-500s in higher-density seating configs, say 310 pax, and they used 7 F/As during the demonstration, then they must use 7 F/As in a reduced seating configuration.
The airline does not the "evacuation demonstration", that was done during certification, it is listed on the TCDS. The maximum certified seating was 375 pax for the A340-500, they would have had a minimum of 8 crew for the certification test.
So in the case of the A330, the minimum would still based upon the number of doors (except for a high density config and 4 type A doors)
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
Bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 8 Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5019 times:
Quoting Zeke (Reply 13): The airline does not the "evacuation demonstration", that was done during certification,
Yes, I was using 'they' too flippantly!
Quoting Zeke (Reply 13): So in the case of the A330, the minimum would still based upon the number of doors (except for a high density config and 4 type A doors)
Well, not in the case of the FAA ... it just happens to be the same number of F/As as the number of doors in this example, based on F/As required using the 50 seat rule.
Quoting Bond007 (Reply 8): I assume there is a correlation between number of seats and number of exits anyway, so there is an indirect relationship.
Kind of like that.
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
Rouge From Mexico, joined Mar 2008, 13 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4979 times:
Quoting Bond007 (Reply 8): It may well be based on number of exits in other countries, but I cannot imagine for example, a 45 seat RJ ever requiring 3 F/As, just because there are 3 exits.
I assume there is a correlation between number of seats and number of exits anyway, so there is an indirect relationship.
I agree with this totally!
Perhaps, now days in Aeromexico for Md's we can do it with 4 FA's with a minimum of 3
B737-700 with 4, min 3
B737-800 with 4, min 4
B767-200 with 7, min 6
B767-300 with 7, min 7
B777 with 12, min 10
our minimums have a relationship with safety (seat numbers and doors) and we can modify service depending on the number of crew members according with safety.
Quoting Zeke (Reply 11): I am uneasy hearing that sort of thing. Cabin crew are on the aircraft for the safety of the passengers, not for serving them food/drink. If you needed to evacuate, you could possibly have one good door not opened as not crew is there to open it.
Nothing but the truth, we all FA's have the training first of all for safety on board. But i think there's also a relationship between that and the service given, i guess most airlines have agreements that involve crew members for safety and service, i would like to know how is it in the airlines that already fly Long Howl planes.
Zeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 7727 posts, RR: 73 Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4931 times:
Quoting Bond007 (Reply 14): Well, not in the case of the FAA ... it just happens to be the same number of F/As as the number of doors in this example, based on F/As required using the 50 seat rule.
The average number of cabin crew on A330-200s around the world at the moment is 246, under the 50 seat rule that would mean 5 cabin crew, under the door rule, it still means 8 cabin crew.
That "relationship" is a function of the doors, for each pair of type A doors you are normally allowed to evacuate 110 pax. Type A doors doors are normally "slide rafts", and Type 1 doors just slides.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
Zkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4739 posts, RR: 10 Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4880 times:
Quoting Zeke (Reply 16): The above aircraft would be certified for a maximum of 375 or 406 passengers, depending on if Door 3 is type A or Type 1.
I was under the impression that all A332 had type 1 doors at doors 3, and that the longer A333 had all type A.
So far as crew levels it is often a requirement of 2 factors.... the 1 for 50 rule (or variations of that), and the number of doors/exits... (depending on the country etc there are variances there too however most require 1 FA per door but not exits). The 737 example I think gets away with 3 crew per 4 doors because the flight deck is so close to doors 1 that provided they weren't incapacitated one of the pilots could open one of the front doors.... or that perhaps L1 FA could open that door and then move across to open R1 whilst one of the pilots then continues at L1.
Bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 8 Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4851 times:
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 17): however most require 1 FA per door but not exits
Although I don't know the FAA specifically mentions F/As per exit, if at all ... just number of seats, and not less F/As than used in evacuation demo. Of course, this would often equate to an F/A per door anyway, but certainly not on some aircraft.
Remember that the assumption is that window exits can be opened by pax (and assistance/guidance given by pax!) not F/As.
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 17): The 737 example I think gets away with 3 crew per 4 doors because
From an FAA standpoint, I'm sure it's because 3 F/As satisfies the number of seats requirement, and the certifcation demonstration successfully evacuated the pax using only 3 F/As.
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
Zkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4739 posts, RR: 10 Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4794 times:
Quoting Bond007 (Reply 20): From an FAA standpoint, I'm sure it's because 3 F/As satisfies the number of seats requirement, and the certifcation demonstration successfully evacuated the pax using only 3 F/As.
I know for example on a 747 SUD (743,744 etc) that there are restrictions on having pax up there if only 1 F/A. Maybe its an Australian thing, I know that so far as ICAO is concerned its based upon pax numbers, but it seems that a lot of juristictions require an F/A per door.
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