Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Relieving Captain Of Command?  
User currently offlineFlybyguy From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1801 posts, RR: 1
Posted (5 years 7 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6070 times:

I was wondering if there is any established procedure or any FARs, JARs or CSs that explicitly allow the first officer (or other ranking flight officer) to relieve the Captain of command in the event his judgment is impaired?

After 9-11 and the installation of impenetrable flight deck doors it would be nice to know that there's some sanity check, established procedure, and/or explicit regulations that govern the actions of crew during an in-flight mutiny.


"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8968 posts, RR: 76
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6045 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting Flybyguy (Thread starter):
I was wondering if there is any established procedure or any FARs, JARs or CSs that explicitly allow the first officer (or other ranking flight officer) to relieve the Captain of command in the event his judgment is impaired?

This has always been a rule. Once the captain is not capable of judging correctly or if he is just making a dangerous maneouver and is ignoring the inputs by the first officer then the first officers duty is to take over control.

I never had to do it, but once I was close to it... Thank god he then listened to me.

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3148 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5974 times:

We have a "two communication rule" per our SOP. If we have to repeat something without a response twice, we take command of the aircraft.

This is exactly what happened with Air Canada a few weeks back. I also have a friend who had a check airmen have a minor heart attack during IOE. He had to declare an emergency and handle almost everything on his own during his second leg.



DMI
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16999 posts, RR: 67
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5966 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 1):
This has always been a rule. Once the captain is not capable of judging correctly or if he is just making a dangerous maneouver and is ignoring the inputs by the first officer then the first officers duty is to take over control.

Heard this story, which may or may not be true, about an "old school" SK Captain and his young female F/O. On final the Captain became more and more uncommunicative, refusing to even answer check list items from the F/O. It was obvious to the F/O that he was being surly and didn't feel that a female in her 20s had any place in the cockpit.

The F/O felt that the approach was unsafe this way. Since the Captain had obviously "lost" the ability to communicate he could be deemed incapacitated. She took over command by saying, "my airplane. Going around" and proceeded to execute the procedure. Apparently the Captain immediately found his voice again and proceeded to give her a verbal blistering punctuated by many four letter words. He lost his job.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineNorthwest727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 491 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5951 times:

Yep, I know rules exist. In fact, I remember being taught by an instructor/former airline FO, she once stated that she had to take the controls from her captain since s/he panicked and did not know how to handle the emergency that had took place.

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5773 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 1):
I never had to do it, but once I was close to it... Thank god he then listened to me.

Any details.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineGST From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 930 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 4 days ago) and read 5757 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 5):
Any details.

Since Wilco evidently did not need to take command there is really no need to know exactly what happened and unecessarily risk identifying/damaging the reputation of a presumably perfectly competent and safe pilot. If further action was needed in the event it would have been dealt with behind closed doors and that is how it should be. You never know, it could turn out to be a well respected a.nutter!


User currently offlineTom775257 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 153 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5649 times:

Personally I have had to take control from the Captain who lost situational awareness during a go around. Then after taking over the aircraft, RT, well everything and getting the aircraft set up and stable downwind and the captain back in the loop, II then gave control back to the captain.

The problem for an FO is you best make damn sure you are correct in taking control, and doubly sure you sort it out. With the event I had, the criticism of me in the investigation was that I should have taken control sooner. To be honest it is really hard to make the decision. Sure, if the guy or girl slumps over you know you have it. The question of creeping incapacitation or increasing loss of situational awareness or control is more difficult.

In my situation I ended up taking over with the aircraft nosing full forward stick to minus five degrees pitch attitude, TOGA thrust and flaps 3 at 2,500 feet (basically called approaching the level off altitude, busted, nose shoved down). Previously I was seeing an increasingly unstable approach and called go-around twice before he initiated. Sound bad, but in that situation (that happened very rapidly) after the G/A there is no argument things are wrong so take control.

Protocol, I guess common sense on the whole. There is the simple stuff like you call 100kts on take-off, CM1 doesn't answer, you check and incap, either reject as per current airline; or continue and circuit to land as previous. In the sim if is very clear to be honest, the guy dramatically falls forward on the stick/yoke, you know. In real life, well, very different, insidious. So common sense rules okay.


User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8968 posts, RR: 76
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5606 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 5):
Any details.



Quoting GST (Reply 6):
Since Wilco evidently did not need to take command there is really no need to know exactly what happened and unecessarily risk identifying/damaging the reputation of a presumably perfectly competent and safe pilot. If further action was needed in the event it would have been dealt with behind closed doors and that is how it should be. You never know, it could turn out to be a well respected a.nutter!

I won't go into any further detail. Just said so much: he thanked me for being to direct and "waking him up". He said, even if I had taken over control, it would be a safe action and he would have been thankful for that as well. So no need to go into any further detail.
I am just happy that this was a one time experience so far. I don't need to do it again, it feels weird nearly taking away the control of the PIC, Commander, Captain.

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5451 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 8):
So no need to go into any further detail.

I understand.Just was curious about the situation details.No names sought.
But I can understand the difficulty.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineFlexo From St. Helena, joined Mar 2007, 406 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 3 days ago) and read 5307 times:

Begs the question to the pilots here: Is that trained in the sim? And if yes, how often does it occur there?

User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8968 posts, RR: 76
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 3 days ago) and read 5302 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting Flexo (Reply 10):
Begs the question to the pilots here: Is that trained in the sim? And if yes, how often does it occur there?

This is hard to train. As in the sim it is no real conditions. But it will be talked about a lot in CRM seminars and all these courses. but every situation is different and there is no master solution.

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5267 times:

Quoting Flexo (Reply 10):
Is that trained in the sim?

I have had it trained a few times in the sim, for both seats. Basically before a sim event one of the pilots will will be told to "die" on the other guy at a particular time. This little briefing usually takes place while the unsuspecting victim is in the bathroom or getting coffee. It is always interesting.

[Edited 2008-12-28 12:05:50]


Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8968 posts, RR: 76
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5258 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 12):

I have had it trained a few times in the sim, for both seats. Basically before a sim event one of the pilots will will be told to "die" on the other guy at a particular time. This little briefing usually takes place while the unsuspecting victim is in the bathroom or getting coffee. It is always interesting.

That is something you can train if the captain "dies" or pass out. But what if he is doing something illegal, dangerous and then you have to take over? This is something you cannot really train. In the sim it is easy to say "I have control", but in real life? If he just doesn't listen to you and he is flying into a dangerous situation...

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineFlexo From St. Helena, joined Mar 2007, 406 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5251 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 13):
If he just doesn't listen to you and he is flying into a dangerous situation...

I suppose that would call for some acting skills on the captain's end...
Could be interesting though!


User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8968 posts, RR: 76
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5246 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting Flexo (Reply 14):
I suppose that would call for some acting skills on the captain's end...
Could be interesting though!

it is interesting for sure. And it gives you as a new FO somehow confidence that you actually have to take over at one point. But in the simulator it is still a lot easier than in the actual ariplane.

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5236 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 13):
This is something you cannot really train.

You are right, that has as much to do with the strength of a person's character as it does their flying skills. It takes a certain level of confidence and commitment to hand your immediate superior a substantial insult, even if it is for the best of reasons. A mature captain might initially be upset, but will recognize it for what it is. Not all captains are so mature. This is why character and personality matter in hiring, not just hours and experience.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5068 times:



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 16):
This is why character and personality matter in hiring, not just hours and experience.

Adds to the Arguement that The Experience difference between the Two crew members should not be vast.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineThePinnacleKid From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 724 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4948 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 17):
Adds to the Arguement that The Experience difference between the Two crew members should not be vast.
regds
MEL

Actually, I would say the confidence level in the F/O to actually be able to speak up / take control away is greatly influenced by the Captain. If the Captain is a good Captain and uses good CRM techniques he empowers his F/O to become a valuable part of the crew and treats him with a high level of mutual respect. The final say will always rest with him (Capt), but by engaging the F/O early on and giving value to the F/O's thoughts and inputs it becomes easier for the F/O to say what he doesn't like, etc... It is important for a Captain to recognize the value of having such dialogue on the flight deck in everyday situations and potential emergency situations if he/she is to be a good captain. A Captain should treat their F/O as the most valuable asset on the aircraft and not as their slave to sit there and keep quiet. In return you will see a huge increase in productivity, alertness, and cooperation from the F/O.

Their is a lot that can be said in all lines of business for empowering a subordinate as oppose to micromanaging one.

I would argue that more than the F/O's experience and character, the Captain's demeanor sets up the ability for an F/O to bring to the table their judgment and character.



"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
User currently offlineNjxc500 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4923 times:

As a sidenote to this topic, how does this work in a military situation. It strikes me as this may be a less democratic environment, and therefore the captain may not be questioned, as he is the "captain".

Nick


User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4900 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 17):
Adds to the Arguement that The Experience difference between the Two crew members should not be vast

Agreed, the era of an FO as a "Gear and Flap Puller" is over.

Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 18):
I would argue that more than the F/O's experience and character, the Captain's demeanor sets up the ability for an F/O to bring to the table their judgment and character

In the absence of those ideal traits in a Captain, the FO should still be able and willing to assume control. Ideally both traits should exist, but hopefully either one is suffiicient to prevent an incident.

Quoting Njxc500 (Reply 19):
how does this work in a military situation

In many aircraft, at least in the US Military, the Aircraft Commander and the Pilot are not the same person. This may vary, particularly in tactical aircraft.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineTWAL1011727 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 622 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4485 times:

I know I'm changing the original topic thread but what if it was the other way around.
Like with the Egypt Air situation....kinda gives ya the creeps.

Quoting Njxc500 (Reply 19):
how does this work in a military situation. It strikes me as this may be a less democratic environment, and therefore the captain may not be questioned, as he is the "captain".

As in Major Deacon and Captain Hale from "Broken Arrow"

KD


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4367 times:



Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 18):
I would say the confidence level in the F/O to actually be able to speak up / take control away is greatly influenced by the Captain

true to a great extent.but also the nature of the F/O in being assertive if needed is an important issue here.Thats where experience helps.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Relieving Captain Of Command?
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
Use Of Life Rafts? posted Mon Dec 1 2008 01:40:05 by Longhornmaniac
Pilots And The Love Of Flying? posted Sun Nov 30 2008 01:56:20 by Allpress
Advantages Of A Quadra-jet Over A Twin posted Mon Nov 24 2008 13:49:08 by Thrust
Size Of A Trijet Powered By CFM56-5C4? posted Sun Nov 23 2008 13:39:48 by 747400sp
Are Airliners Capable Of Going Supersonic In Dive? posted Thu Nov 20 2008 10:36:54 by Hypersonic
What Is The Whell Rim Size Of Most Widebodie? posted Tue Nov 18 2008 19:13:46 by 747400sp
Configuration Of Modern Transport Aircraft posted Tue Nov 18 2008 09:52:59 by SpenceSaab
Post-Production Support Of Nearly-Extinct Aircraft posted Mon Nov 17 2008 10:57:26 by 2H4
Copying Flight Of Birds posted Sun Nov 9 2008 12:17:24 by Flexo
Question On The Accident Of BA B777, G-YMMM posted Sat Nov 1 2008 17:01:34 by Ajaaron

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format