JA From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 513 posts, RR: 1 Posted (4 years 5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8602 times:
What is the average ACMI rate to expect for the following aircraft?
MD80
737-300/400/500
757
767
I have received one quote for a 734 at around $5,500 per hour for a minimum of 250 hours per month. Other airlines are not willing to give a ballpark number for some reason. I am pretty sure that I can meet a 250 hour per month minimum to get the "good rates".
The MD80 and 737 would be used regionally. The 757 & 767 would be used for heavy regional loads and transcontinental work as well as some transatlantic. Frankly, I am trying to work the numbers to determine the feasibility of some ideas that I have. I would prefer to use the surplus capacity of another airline, hence the ACMI/wet lease route. The mathematics on an ER4 do not work for everything.
Penguinflies From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 975 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8389 times:
The issue you might have is not getting the aircraft or crew, but the DOT certificate to sell seats of the given aircraft. It's one thing to be a travel agent selling tickets on scheduled service and a whole another can of worms if you were the principle selling air transportation. Some kid (20-year-old) tried to do it in Hawaii and I think got arrested/fined. Do a search of this site for 5 years ago and you might find some topics relating to his demise or Honolulu Star-Bulletin or Honolulu Advertiser (as this was a Hawaii-based story).
Air Carriers most likely to do this service for you are:
Miami Air
TransMeridian
Pace
Just to name 3 that I have seen provide dedicated uplift . There are others. Majors/Nationals that do charters for a one-time trip/season as they guarantee a charter sometimes at a cost/gamble to losing their spare aircraft for a day.
5.5 sounds like average and I would based most of your plan off that if you were to use a 734. You can probably get better rates/serious rates once the business plan is in place and lines-of-credit are as well.
JA From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 513 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8228 times:
Quoting Penguinflies (Reply 1): The issue you might have is not getting the aircraft or crew, but the DOT certificate to sell seats of the given aircraft. It's one thing to be a travel agent selling tickets on scheduled service and a whole another can of worms if you were the principle selling air transportation. Some kid (20-year-old) tried to do it in Hawaii and I think got arrested/fined. Do a search of this site for 5 years ago and you might find some topics relating to his demise or Honolulu Star-Bulletin or Honolulu Advertiser (as this was a Hawaii-based story).
I would set things up similar to DirectAir. You register, put up a bond, and set up your escrow accounts and you are done as per the DOT Charter Rules. The only hard thing is getting your cost down to be competitive and marketing. Eventually, I'll look to pick up a Part 121 certificate, but for now, I am going to test certain markets using chartered aircraft. At least, that is the plan.
Quoting Penguinflies (Reply 1): 5.5 sounds like average and I would based most of your plan off that if you were to use a 734. You can probably get better rates/serious rates once the business plan is in place and lines-of-credit are as well.
Good to know. I saw a range of $4,600 to $10,000 per hour for another carrier that had 734s and 738s. Phase 1 is based on a lot of 50 seat flying initially (fill the planes, then upgrade), but there are certain markets which I may have to bite the bullet and go straight to a 717 or 734. I am thinking that some of the Florida markets may outstrip an ER4's baggage capacity pretty quickly. Other markets don't work without the additional seats. I do have a line of credit that is based on contract funding, so if I have X amount sitting in the escrow account, I can get 80% of X to get going.
Quoting Raid1wa (Reply 2): I once seen a quote in the EU of €6600 per hour for 220 hours/pm on a 762.
That is around ~$9,500/hr. Obama's charter of a 752 ran him $20,000/hr all inclusive, so I don't think that number is far off.
USAFDO From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 439 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8106 times:
JA...you are between 21-25 years old, the owner of a New York bus company, and now jumping into the airline business, on airliners net looking for aircraft rental rates ...WOW...Double WOW!!!!!
I was just wondering how many commerical aircraft rental company representatives on Airliners.net available in this blog that can quote you prices for your new airline...
This is so exciting! What is the home base of your airline? What is the name of your new airline? What city pairs have your already analyzed that are expected to generate profits? What is the aircraft color scheme?
Wjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4557 posts, RR: 16 Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8017 times:
Uhhhhhhh....
FIrst of all, I'm not sure you can even do a traditional wet lease, which is available only to other certificated carriers (such as for subservice) and to tour operators under certain conditions. Instead, I think you're really talking about operating a public charter (because you're presumably selling trips to the public), which you can do if you meet all the DOT requirements; there's a special office at the DOT that can help you with that, and there are places online that you can find the basics.
If you're running a public charter on a regular basis, then you're probably going to want to set up a "track charter", which is a charter that your air carrier (the one you hire to provide the service and you designate to the DOT) operates on a consistent schedule, whatever that schedulle is. There would be no reason for you to try to handle the things that an ACMI lessor does not, such as fuel, ground handling, operating permits and catering. A charter airline, like Miami Air, North American, etc., has the staff and expertise to do these things realtively-easily, something a first-timer is not; it's not something that you want to learn by doing as your passengers begin to spread stories of crappy food, mishandled bags, and waiiting on the tarmac in the plane for 2 hours because there was nobody available to do ground work.
JA From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 513 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7725 times:
Quoting USAFDO (Reply 5): This is so exciting! What is the home base of your airline? What is the name of your new airline? What city pairs have your already analyzed that are expected to generate profits? What is the aircraft color scheme?
I am not saying everything just yet. I'd like to, but not yet. I would like to finish planning 5-10 years worth of expansion before I fly the first plane. Otherwise, you end up not growing properly. Every indirect air operator that tried anything similar failed because they got too excited when the planes filled in the beginning and they expanded too fast (tapped themselves out) or they extended haphazardly. I'd rather have another airline cut my throat than me cut my own.
Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 6): Instead, I think you're really talking about operating a public charter (because you're presumably selling trips to the public), which you can do if you meet all the DOT requirements; there's a special office at the DOT that can help you with that, and there are places online that you can find the basics.
That part is already done. I understand the requirements to get started. What I am looking for is a reference point for ACMI. As an indirect air carrier and doing a mix of leisure and business markets, I cannot afford to overpay.
Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 6): There would be no reason for you to try to handle the things that an ACMI lessor does not, such as fuel, ground handling, operating permits and catering. A charter airline, like Miami Air, North American, etc., has the staff and expertise to do these things realtively-easily, something a first-timer is not; it's not something that you want to learn by doing as your passengers begin to spread stories of crappy food, mishandled bags, and waiiting on the tarmac in the plane for 2 hours because there was nobody available to do ground work.
The carriers and airports involved have been providing some guidance along the way. That being said, the most important part is your network and what type of segmentation you want to do by route. The ACMI rates can determine one's ability to effectively compete for passengers on a cost basis. Everything else is more or less a known quantity (not necessarily easy, but known).
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