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Landing Speed: Avro And ERJ  
User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 24
Posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6755 times:

Inspired by the discussion following a ERJ-145 of BE overshooting STR's 10974 ft / 3345 m runway in winterly conditions a few days ago (no damages to speak of, no injuries), the following question came up:

What are the typical landing speeds of
a) the AVRO/BAe-146 series
b) ERJ-145
when there are no specific limitations (runway fairly long, no ice, no high winds, decent pax load ~ 80% LF) ?

Related question: Are there differences in procedures (i.e. different limitations) in flying into an airport with a ERJ-145 if equipped with Thrust Reversers resp. lacking those (as they are only optional on the ERJ145) ?
-HT


Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
7 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineKAUSpilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1958 posts, RR: 33
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6737 times:

I have no experience with the BAe-146, so I cannot answer that aspect of your inquiry.

Vref (landing) speeds for the EMB-145 range anywhere from about 110-135 knots depending on aircraft weight. The final approach is typcally flown 5 knots faster than this, maybe 10 knots faster if gusty winds exist. If category II/III (low visibility) conditions existed, the landing speed would be even higher, as this requires a smaller flap setting to be used, but still no higher than 140 knots.

There are no penalties, at least at my operator for an inoperative thrust reverser. The landing performance charts do not account for T/R usage when depicting required/actual landing distances. After touchdown, the stopping distance is based only on the drag from landing flaps, fully extended ground spoilers, and maximum braking.

6000 ft is roughly the minimum required runway length for an EMB-145 to be dispatched to at sea level (assuming a landing at max weight), increasing about 2% per thousand feet of elevation. A 15% correction factor must be applied for a contaminated runway, such as snow or rain. Actual landing distance is about 2/3 of that, so between 3500-4000 ft. That figure increases by 15% for a contaminated runway, an additional 15% for low visibility (less thn 3/4 SM), and an additional 18% for a tailwind. Again, I can only vouch for procedues at the operator where I'm employed.


User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3144 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6723 times:

Thrust reversers aren't taken into account in landing performance as KAUS pointed out.

The carrier I used to fly at had aircraft with and without T/Rs. No difference in numbers, however I ALWAYS used flaps 45 if the runway was wet or contaminated in the aircraft without them. If it was equipped with them I might consider flaps 22 if the conditions were favorable. While not considered in performance calculations, they do make a noticeable difference.



DMI
User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6706 times:

Thanks for the two replies.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 1):
After touchdown, the stopping distance is based only on the drag from landing flaps, fully extended ground spoilers, and maximum braking.

Not being a pilot myself, please allow me the following questions to understand this situation better:

Below which speed (= aircraft vs.the surrounding air) do flaps and spoilers become (almost) ineffective ?

If a runway is reported to have limited friction, how is "breaking power" being set before touchdown ?
Does it get set to "Max" or is some lower setting selected ?
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineThePinnacleKid From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 723 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6672 times:



Quoting HT (Reply 3):
If a runway is reported to have limited friction, how is "breaking power" being set before touchdown ?
Does it get set to "Max" or is some lower setting selected ?

The ERJ does not have an auto braking system... it's all accomplished with foot power by the pilot... (except for the parking brake which is a lever on the captain's side of the center pedestal)



"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6659 times:



Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 4):
The ERJ does not have an auto braking system...

Thanks for the info. I was not aware of this fact.
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineGlidepath73 From Germany, joined Mar 2005, 1020 posts, RR: 45
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6596 times:



Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 4):

The ERJ does not have an auto braking system... it's all accomplished with foot power by the pilot... (except for the parking brake which is a lever on the captain's side of the center pedestal)

Interesting! Might it be possible that at those overruns not enough brake power was applied?

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 2):
While not considered in performance calculations, they do make a noticeable difference.

Strange that the performance calculation is done on the same base as a/c with T/R's...

Anyway, thanks for those information's guys. Always happy landings to you!  Smile

Regards,
Patrick



Aviation! That rocks...
User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3144 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6576 times:



Quoting Glidepath73 (Reply 6):
Strange that the performance calculation is done on the same base as a/c with T/R's...

Performance figures are based on worst case scenario. Takeoff performance numbers are based on single engine ops but we usually use both of them  Wink

Autobrakes really don't have much to do with it. Antiskid will still limit the force if it's detecting wheels moving at different speeds. The ERJ is also brake by wire so the computer is still doing what it feels is best for what the user is asking it to do.



DMI
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