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Could Concorde Turn At Full Speed?  
User currently offlineA380900 From France, joined Dec 2003, 1097 posts, RR: 1
Posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6049 times:

Could the Concorde turn at full speed? Was it using normal control surfaces or other things? What was the maximum bank angle, what radius would that translate into over the grounds in NM? Thanks.

14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBellerophon From United Kingdom, joined May 2002, 583 posts, RR: 59
Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6036 times:

A380900

...Could the Concorde turn at full speed?

Yes.


..Was it using normal control surfaces...

Yes.


...or other things?...

What sort of “other things” did you have in mind?


...What was the maximum bank angle...

30°, but rarely required or used, 20° would have been more usual.


...What radius would that translate into over the grounds...

If you actually meant over the grounds, then that would depend on the wind. In still air:

• At 20° bank, turn radius 52 nm.

• At 25° bank, turn radius 41 nm.

• At 30° bank, turn radius 33 nm.


Regards

Bellerophon


User currently offlineMetroliner From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 1067 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6029 times:

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 1):
• At 20° bank, turn radius 52 nm.

• At 25° bank, turn radius 41 nm.

• At 30° bank, turn radius 33 nm

Wow, only? I heard the Blackbird, which flies some 50% faster (granted   ) takes Utah to turn 180!

[Edited 2009-01-25 07:30:16]


Set the controls for the heart of the Sun
User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 6000 times:
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Quoting Metroliner (Reply 2):
Wow, only? I heard the Blackbird, which flies some 50% faster (granted ) takes Utah to turn 180!

I bet those figures are for a 1g turn. I suspect a Concorde at full speed would produce considerably greater Gs to make those radii. To reduce the Gs to acceptable levels they would either have to widen the turn or reduce the speed....



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User currently offlineSP90 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 388 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5964 times:



Quoting A380900 (Thread starter):
other things

Like thrust vectoring? Did the Concorde even have that?


User currently offlineMoose135 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2291 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5947 times:



Quoting Metroliner (Reply 2):
Wow, only? I heard the Blackbird, which flies some 50% faster (granted ) takes Utah to turn 180!

Handy turn calculator here: http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html

Using 1,350 mph for Concorde cruise speed, it calculates turn diameter (for 30° bank) of 69.8nm, which is in line with the numbers Bellerophon posted. Using 2,100 mph for the SR-71, results in a turn diameter of nearly 170nm for 30° bank.

Remember that in calculating turn radius/diameter, the square of the speed is used, so increasing speed by 50% results in an increase of 125%.



KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5947 times:



Quoting SP90 (Reply 4):

Like thrust vectoring? Did the Concorde even have that?

Not really, except thrust reversers. Although that technically is thrust vectoring, it's not what anybody means when they say an aircraft uses thrust vectoring.

Any multi-engine aircraft has the possibility for differential thrust, but I'm not aware of any commercial aircraft that uses that as normal procedure.

Tom.


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9523 posts, RR: 42
Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5938 times:



Quoting SP90 (Reply 4):
Quoting A380900 (Thread starter):
other things

Like thrust vectoring? Did the Concorde even have that?

No, nor reaction control jets.  Smile


User currently offlineFredT From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2002, 2185 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5919 times:



Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 3):
I bet those figures are for a 1g turn. I suspect a Concorde at full speed would produce considerably greater Gs to make those radii. To reduce the Gs to acceptable levels they would either have to widen the turn or reduce the speed....

A level 1 G turn will have a significant radius indeed...  Smile



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User currently offlineRaginMav From United States of America, joined May 2004, 376 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5892 times:



Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 3):


Quoting Metroliner (Reply 2):
Wow, only? I heard the Blackbird, which flies some 50% faster (granted ) takes Utah to turn 180!

I bet those figures are for a 1g turn. I suspect a Concorde at full speed would produce considerably greater Gs to make those radii. To reduce the Gs to acceptable levels they would either have to widen the turn or reduce the speed....

 alert 

'G's in a constant altitude turn are a function of bank angle, irrespective of speed (as long as the speed is not zero, of course  Wink)

Quoting FredT (Reply 8):
A level 1 G turn will have a significant radius indeed...

 bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5886 times:



Quoting A380900 (Thread starter):
Could the Concorde turn at full speed?

Sure... why not...? The SR71 could and that traveled 3-4x' faster.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineBellerophon From United Kingdom, joined May 2002, 583 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5560 times:

ZANL 188

...I bet those figures are for a 1g turn...

Actually, as FredT implied  Wink technically there is no such thing as a 1g turn.

And, as RaginMav correctly stated, for any aircraft, in a level turn, the g loading is only related to the angle of bank and is completely independent of the airspeed.


...I suspect a Concorde at full speed would produce considerably greater Gs to make those radii...

Here are the figures, judge for yourself.

• At 20° bank, turn radius 52 nm, 1.06g.

• At 25° bank, turn radius 41 nm, 1.10g.

• At 30° bank, turn radius 33 nm, 1.15g.


...To reduce the Gs to acceptable levels they would either have to widen the turn or reduce the speed...

Neither was necessary, as I think the above figures demonstrate.


Best Regards

Bellerophon


User currently offlineAustrianZRH From Austria, joined Aug 2007, 1358 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5500 times:



Quoting FredT (Reply 8):
A level 1 G turn will have a significant radius indeed... Smile

I'd say, it would be about 6,375 km, give or take 15 km for altitude and latitude  Smile.



WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
User currently offlineRaginMav From United States of America, joined May 2004, 376 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5402 times:

Here's another interesting thought: to make a standard rate (1.5 degrees per second) turn at the previously sighted 1350 mph, the Concord would need a 58 degree bank angle!

To turn at 3 degrees per second, the bank angle would be 73 degrees! (3.4 Gs)

Maybe that's why there are maximum holding speeds...!  eyepopping 


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13151 posts, RR: 78
Reply 14, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5281 times:

Well Bellerphron has said it all.

I did experience two turns at speed, at 30W, basically turning back to LHR over the Atlantic, both were planned.
One was on 11 Sept 2001, of all days, where I and 98 other BA Concorde staff on G-BOAF were 'pax' for the first of a series of flights to prepare the aircraft to re-enter service after the AF accident.

Really, it was to re-train cabin crew, try new menus, also aid the ground staff and facilities in general for the return to service and we used the Concorde lounge for good measure!
In every respect, it was just like a normal LHR-JFK service, just with that turn back.
(With what was unfolding in NY on our way back, just as well).
Later flights a few weeks later, included one that had more of my colleagues as 'pax', but going to JFK, then back, all in a day!
A memorable day for me then for more than one reason, but that 'other' reason essentially caused it's retirement to be brought forward a few years.

The second one was on the last ever BA Concorde full post maintenance air-test, in Aug 2003, on G-BOAE.
Just a few of us on board here, no cabin crew, certainly the turn felt much more pronounced this time, whether it actually was I don't know.
At 30W again.


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