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Airbus "smaller Than The Rest" Doors  
User currently offlineTiktokJAKE From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2009, 124 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5793 times:

Hia
I just thought this needed a mention. Why do the A321/A330/A340-600 all have smaller doors than the rest of the doors on that model. On the A340-600/A330 the little door is located at door 3. On the A321 it is at door 3 + 2 R ONLY
WHy??

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4718 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5769 times:

Because they don't need a larger door. Those doors are for emergency only and the current doors provide enough capacity. A larger door would only add weight.


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User currently offlineNorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 3064 posts, RR: 36
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5769 times:
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Save costs mostly. If you don't need the full size door for evacuation why pay for the heavier door, much less the fuel and maintenance costs involved.

Also on the A330 Door 3 is optional to the larger size, most charter airlines have the full size door at 3.

Many planes have door size options... the L1011 had a door size option for Door 4 at the very back, could be made fullsize if the airline wanted to put in high density seating. The 757 and 767 both have multiple door configurations to allow different seating densities and configurations. The A300 could have a small or full size door at Door 3...

The list goes on... it's just an option.



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21580 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5680 times:



Quoting JRadier (Reply 1):
Because they don't need a larger door. Those doors are for emergency only and the current doors provide enough capacity. A larger door would only add weight.

Yep. They are not full use doors, and have a lower pax/min rating than full use doors for the aircraft type, but they are there strictly to allow for increased max evacuation capacity in these stretched designs. They are usually placed so that the meet the safety criteria of "maximum number of seats between exits".

The 739ER has a similar small door for the same reason, and it is only activated (otherwise plugged) when capacity is above 189.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5943 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5366 times:

Boeing does this on the 752 and 764 as well. The door 3L/R on 752s configured WITHOUT overwing exits (and on all 753s) is a smaller, hinged at the bottom, type door. The door aft of the wings on 764s is smaller as well.

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15828 posts, RR: 27
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5233 times:



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 4):
Boeing does this on the 752 and 764 as well. The door 3L/R on 752s configured WITHOUT overwing exits (and on all 753s) is a smaller, hinged at the bottom, type door. The door aft of the wings on 764s is smaller as well.

I think that DL's ex TW 757s have the six full sized doors and two smaller ones instead of the more common six full size and 4 overwing exits.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5212 times:

The 737-900ER also has a smaller overwing door.

NS


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15828 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5169 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 6):
The 737-900ER also has a smaller overwing door.

That is one of the differences between the -900 and -900ER. Before the -900ER came out, the -900s had the same capacity as a -800. Some airlines (CO is one) have chosen to deactivate those doors on their aircraft. You'd never know that it is there on the inside, but the door is visible from the outside and I think can be activated if CO or a future operator wants to bump up the capacity.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineCEO@AFG From Norway, joined Jan 2001, 249 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4988 times:

It's an option on some of the Airbus models. The A330s flown by MYT now Thomas Cook have high capacity all economy seating, and features full size doors in both door 3L/R.


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User currently offlineFlyibaby From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1017 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4915 times:

Sprit's A321's have the larger doors as well.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25978 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4870 times:

Quoting CEO@AFG (Reply 8):
It's an option on some of the Airbus models. The A330s flown by MYT now Thomas Cook have high capacity all economy seating, and features full size doors in both door 3L/R.

Also Air Transat.


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On the other hand, LX with about 140 fewer seats on their 332s than Air Transat (only 198 seats on LX 3-class 332s, fewer seats than their A321s) have the small #3 door.


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[Edited 2009-02-13 14:24:41]

User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 4809 times:

I've seen DC-8's that had almost as many exits as windows. Okay, maybe not that many, but a lot. For example:



There are seven exits on the one side.
Big version: Width: 640 Height: 473 File size: 76kb


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25978 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 4736 times:



Quoting Khobar (Reply 11):
I've seen DC-8's that had almost as many exits as windows.

The 60-series DC-8s had a variety of optional galley, lavatory, door and emergency exit locations.


User currently offlineTZTriStar500 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1459 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 4556 times:



Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 2):
the L1011 had a door size option for Door 4 at the very back, could be made fullsize if the airline wanted to put in high density seating.

Not entirely true. The full size aft (P5) door on the standard body L-1011s was only for British ordered/registered aircraft to meet British regulations. No other operators had this full size door. The -500 has this door full size as it does not have a door aft of the wing (P4) like the standard body aircraft. The one exception here is the -500 aircraft operated by ATA that had an extra aft of the wing door (P4A) installed by DL STC to meet current regulations and seating density requirements.



35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4063 posts, RR: 33
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 4546 times:



Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 13):
Not entirely true. The full size aft (P5) door on the standard body L-1011s was only for British ordered/registered aircraft to meet British regulations.

But the British L1011 could seat 399 pax. (And the charter ones did). In Sweden, L1011 with the small Nbr 4 doors could only seat about 360 pax.
Could you seat 399 pax in a L1011 with small Nbr 4 doors anywhere else?


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 4501 times:



Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 14):
But the British L1011 could seat 399 pax. (And the charter ones did). In Sweden, L1011 with the small Nbr 4 doors could only seat about 360 pax.
Could you seat 399 pax in a L1011 with small Nbr 4 doors anywhere else

The first L-1011's with eight (8) Type A doors were the two Court Lines aircraft. They were certified and had seats for 400 passengers. Subsequently all the British Airways and British Air Tours L-1011 were also fitted with the eight (8) Type A doors. I am not sure if BA ever actually fit 400 seats in any of there L-1011's.

The L-1011's with six (6) Type A doors and two (2) Type 1 doors were limited to 362 passengers.

As a note: 400 passengers in an L-1011 required 10 abreast seating (3-4-3) with a 30" seat pitch. Not the most comfortable seating arrangement.


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 4462 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 15):
The first L-1011's with eight (8) Type A doors were the two Court Lines aircraft. They were certified and had seats for 400 passengers. Subsequently all the British Airways and British Air Tours L-1011 were also fitted with the eight (8) Type A doors. I am not sure if BA ever actually fit 400 seats in any of there L-1011's.

The L-1011's with six (6) Type A doors and two (2) Type 1 doors were limited to 362 passengers.

How do they come up with these numbers? According to the FAR25.8xx's, a Type A is good for up to 110 pax, and a Type I for 45. So shouldn't the L-1011 with the small #4 have a max capacity of 375?


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 4457 times:



Quoting LY744 (Reply 16):
How do they come up with these numbers? According to the FAR25.8xx's, a Type A is good for up to 110 pax, and a Type I for 45. So shouldn't the L-1011 with the small #4 have a max capacity of 375?

You read the T.C.D.S.

With six (6) Type A doors and two (2) Type 1 doors, Lockheed demonstrated 345 passengers with the 362 being established by analysis. The 400 was established by demonstration.


User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4063 posts, RR: 33
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 4456 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 15):
I am not sure if BA ever actually fit 400 seats in any of there L-1011's.

Oh yes. BA had a charter outfit called British Airtours, and later Caledonian. These aircraft had 399 seats. Many of the BA Tristars flew with these outfits and had these seats, but not when on BA service.


User currently offlineTZTriStar500 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1459 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week ago) and read 4410 times:

My point here was that I believe the British CAA required the larger doors regardless of maximum capacity since the BA examples had them and I believe BA never intended to operate them in a high density layout though they did later in charter ops. Carl (474218) can correct me if I'm wrong here.


35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25978 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4387 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 15):
I am not sure if BA ever actually fit 400 seats in any of there L-1011's.

BA's L1011-1s used on intra-Europe routes had tight 10-abreast (3-4-3) charter-type seating in economy class, but also had a first class cabin originally. Not sure what their total seating was. At the time they started operating those, many L1011 (and DC-10) operators, especially those in North America, stil had the oriiginal 8-abreast (2-4-2) seating. Quite a contrast to go from one of those to one of the BA 10-abreast L1011s.


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4377 times:



Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 19):
My point here was that I believe the British CAA required the larger doors regardless of maximum capacity since the BA examples had them and I believe BA never intended to operate them in a high density layout though they did later in charter ops. Carl (474218) can correct me if I'm wrong here.

I don't know. Everything I have at home states that the Type A doors in the L&R 4 position, in lieu of the Type 1 doors, was an option. I will try and get a definitive answer next week.


User currently onlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2233 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4115 times:
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Quoting Khobar (Reply 11):
There are seven exits on the one side.

How come United required so many exits on their DC-8?

I flew on a Scanair DC-8-63 with 252 seats, and that had "only" 6 exits per side.

Side note: The DC-8-61/63 was one great aircraft, love the looong fuselage. Pity they don't fly pax anymore...

Does anyone have the link to the FAR overview on how many pax each door type is certified for in case of emergency? Type A = 110 pax etc...



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25978 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4003 times:



Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 22):
How come United required so many exits on their DC-8?

UA's early non-advanced 727-200s also had an extra emergency exist on both sides just in front of the wing. I can't recall seeing that exit on any other 727s. If memory correct there was some indication that it would be needed for certain higher-density seating configurations, but it it wasn't. Visible in following photos.


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UA later deactivated and sealed up those exits. You can see where it was in the following photo due to the wider gap between the windows on both sides of the window in that exit door.


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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.



The exit didn't exist on the later 727-200Adv's.


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User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3872 times:



Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 22):
Does anyone have the link to the FAR overview on how many pax each door type is certified for in case of emergency? Type A = 110 pax etc...

http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_25-807.html


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
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