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Restraining Of Unruly Passengers  
User currently offlineWing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1555 posts, RR: 24
Posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3314 times:

I have recently compleated a course in our ground training center about a new implemented program of our company about the "unruly behaviours on board".Star Allience companies are already using these plastic hand restraints against the persons who are comprimising flight safety.This procedures are being used in US carriers for quite some time now.

It was quite interesting actually to see how by using the correct technics a petite' flight attendant can overcome a well built man.Ofcourse this is a group effort.

As the pilots were are not part of the action but the FA's still require Captains authorisation and make sure that the person is really a threat to aircraft and its passengers.

My opinion with the increase of number of passengers in our company we run into more unruly passenger behaviours more more each day and we didnt have enough company procedures against this.Passengers will be handed out a warning about this procedure on the cover of the tickets and media and internet.


Widen your world
16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAvt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2132 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3245 times:



Quoting Wing (Thread starter):
persons who are comprimising flight safety.

The trick is defining what that means. I am a little concerned that some people are facing serious penalties for behaviour onboard an aircraft, when that same behaviour on a city bus probably wouldn't raise any eyebrows.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31573 posts, RR: 57
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 20 hours ago) and read 3198 times:



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 1):
The trick is defining what that means. I am a little concerned that some people are facing serious penalties for behaviour onboard an aircraft, when that same behaviour on a city bus probably wouldn't raise any eyebrows.

Considering An Aircraft normally is a pressurized shell at altitude,a prank/violation would be considered more serious than another vehicle at other locations.
regds
MEL.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineWing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1555 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 19 hours ago) and read 3186 times:



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 1):
The trick is defining what that means

Its more like trying to enter the flight deck or trying to open the cabin doors or attacking the guy sitting next to you.



Widen your world
User currently offlineAvt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2132 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 2 hours ago) and read 3102 times:

I don't have specifics, but my impression is that people often want to automatically throw the book at a guy because he got drunk and yelled at the Fa who wouldn't serve him anymore.

User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2551 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 1 hour ago) and read 3082 times:



Quoting Wing (Thread starter):
It was quite interesting actually to see how by using the correct technics a petite' flight attendant can overcome a well built man.

A 50 kilogram flight attendant has a chance of a snowball in hell to overcome a well built man. Sorry, its just a fact of life. And as far as the help from other passengers is concerned, well, I'd have some problems with it, especially while flying in Turkish airspace. Do you remember this one?

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/318/7175/12/b

Or did the rules change since 9/11? If yes, I'm ready to help.


User currently offlineZappbrannigan From Australia, joined Oct 2008, 247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3046 times:



Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 5):
A 50 kilogram flight attendant has a chance of a snowball in hell to overcome a well built man. Sorry, its just a fact of life. And as far as the help from other passengers is concerned, well, I'd have some problems with it, especially while flying in Turkish airspace. Do you remember this one?

Too true. All the textbook techniques work wonders in sterile training scenarios - get an *angry* 110kg man who doesn't want you anywhere near him, and you won't have a hope in hell. Most of this stuff doesn't work for police - why would it work for a flight attendant? Some of the airlines here were running "anti-terrorist" training - a feelgood 2 day training package that is next to useless in the real world against motivated or truly angry individuals - although if it gets the "fight" mindset in their heads, that's something.

I completely hate the "the passengers will help" solution - it's being used as an excuse to remove heaps of funding from truly capable counter-terrorist measures in Australian aviation - and recent history has shown that passengers, as a whole, won't do a thing - not in any reasonable period of time, anyway. Of course there'll be the odd guy who'll fire up - but this can't be relied upon.


User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3139 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3038 times:

Agree with Zap. However the pax have already subdued a few here in the states. The shoe bomber guy and the pax on WN that suffocated while some pax held him down come to mind.

The fourth plane crashed short of it's intended target because of passenger intervention.

FA's are trained to spot the pax that could help in a situation like that. I usually try to watch from the front as they're boarding up or take a quick look back too for that reason.



DMI
User currently offlineWing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1555 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2984 times:

I should have more specific.Statistics showed 97% of the problems can be solwed by the FA's swithc places when a problem occurs and a superviser comes and deals with the situation.3% however the person may be either under influence or mental problems that can not be communicated logically.An insult to a FA will not be considered a flight safety issue but rather trying to open a cockpit door,attacking somebody or clearly declaring that your intention against the airplane and its passengers etc.

Ofcourse a 50 kg lady can not come head to head with a 110 kg guy but when a decision is made to restrain a 110 kg guy the group of FA's(atleast 4 in our airplanes including atleast one male FA as normal crew composition) will be approaching from all sides and using some proper technics(you can temprorarily paralise a person by applying pressure on a correct point of the body until one of the crew members put on the handcuff)

The passenger help is only if he/she requests and they never can be insisted or requested.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 5):
And as far as the help from other passengers is concerned, well, I'd have some problems with it, especially while flying in Turkish airspace. Do you remember this one?

I can't see the full story since it requires a full subscription. Until the last year the Turkish law did require the flight crew to show up infront of the judge personally in an event on board airplanes.And it was a pain in the back if you had a problem onboard.Now with the consistent pressures from the Airlines the law has changed and the crews doesnt require a personal show up now.So no more crews has to leave the airplane and waste time in the courts.



Widen your world
User currently offlineM11Stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2926 times:



Quoting Zappbrannigan (Reply 6):

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 5):
A 50 kilogram flight attendant has a chance of a snowball in hell to overcome a well built man. Sorry, its just a fact of life. And as far as the help from other passengers is concerned, well, I'd have some problems with it, especially while flying in Turkish airspace. Do you remember this one?

Too true. All the textbook techniques work wonders in sterile training scenarios - get an *angry* 110kg man who doesn't want you anywhere near him, and you won't have a hope in hell. Most of this stuff doesn't work for police - why would it work for a flight attendant? Some of the airlines here were running "anti-terrorist" training - a feelgood 2 day training package that is next to useless in the real world against motivated or truly angry individuals - although if it gets the "fight" mindset in their heads, that's something.

You'd be surprised how well a kick or knee to the groin works or a punch to the throat. I also can't think of a single post 9/11 incident where flight safety was at risk when passengers didn't come to the rescue of the f/as. The story of United 93 was well publicized and passengers realize that its up to them to defend the flight deck. Women have been successfully defending themselves on the streets for year against men determined to do them harm. If the airlines actually spent some money on cabin crew security training it would make a huge difference.



My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlineIAirAllie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2926 times:



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 1):
I am a little concerned that some people are facing serious penalties for behaviour onboard an aircraft, when that same behaviour on a city bus probably wouldn't raise any eyebrows.

A city bus can pull over stop and have the police take care of the problem. Apples and oranges.

Quoting Avt007 (Reply 4):
but my impression is that people often want to automatically throw the book at a guy because he got drunk and yelled at the Fa who wouldn't serve him anymore.

The drunk guy yelling can quickly become the drunk guy violently lashing out at passengers around them or crew, attempting to open the door or crapping on a food cart (google it for a interesting read). Yelling at the crew is never acceptable. It alone does not warrant cuffs but if on the ground this behavior certainly warrants removal from the flight.

Quoting M11Stephen (Reply 9):
. If the airlines actually spent some money on cabin crew security training it would make a huge difference.

The FAA provides free voluntary training seminars for FA's. I took one shortly after 9/11. My airline give it a segment every year in our recurrent training.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2896 times:



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 10):
The drunk guy yelling can quickly become the drunk guy violently lashing out at passengers around them or crew, attempting to open the door or crapping on a food cart (google it for a interesting read). Yelling at the crew is never acceptable. It alone does not warrant cuffs but if on the ground this behavior certainly warrants removal from the flight.

A well-known French television personality travelling in first class on a CDG-JNB flight a couple of years ago became violent after too much alcohol and caused a disturbance after walking back to the economy cabin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m611P05bp8w

He was eventually restratined and handcuffed. I think 3 or 4 AF flight attendants pressed charges for assault (he apparently bit one of them). He eventually pleaded guilty to several charges and reached some kind of settlement and was ordered to undergo psychological treatment etc. However he still has two regular programs (one daily, one twice-monthly) on one of the major French networks.

A couple of weeks ago he got into further trouble when he was the master of ceremonies at a French television awards presentation and made crude comments when presenting the award to a female winner.


User currently offlineZappbrannigan From Australia, joined Oct 2008, 247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2862 times:



Quoting M11Stephen (Reply 9):
You'd be surprised how well a kick or knee to the groin works or a punch to the throat. I also can't think of a single post 9/11 incident where flight safety was at risk when passengers didn't come to the rescue of the f/as. The story of United 93 was well publicized and passengers realize that its up to them to defend the flight deck. Women have been successfully defending themselves on the streets for year against men determined to do them harm. If the airlines actually spent some money on cabin crew security training it would make a huge difference.

Agreed - but passengers generally take time to "fire themselves up" - even more so when a serious threat is presented. When we're talking knives and guns, I wouldn't bet on any vigilante action. I'm mainly talking terrorism here, not a single drunken idiot. The kick to the groin works very well, if you manage to pull it off - most training doesn't cover seriously motivated, frenzied, angry people and how to deal with them, though.

So a drunk, abusive idiot who might want to throw a punch? Yeah, let the crew and pax deal with that, they'd be quite capable, especially with some extra training. A hyped, highly aggressive, strong, motivated, angry man who's decided he's going to half kill you, or get into the flight deck - wouldn't be so sure, in my experience. The pax are capable - 200 to 1 are good odds - but you have to make them react quickly and accurately, and depending on the severity of the threat, that might be hard.


User currently offlineM11Stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2844 times:



Quoting Zappbrannigan (Reply 12):
A hyped, highly aggressive, strong, motivated, angry man who's decided he's going to half kill you, or get into the flight deck - wouldn't be so sure, in my experience. The pax are capable - 200 to 1 are good odds - but you have to make them react quickly and accurately, and depending on the severity of the threat, that might be hard.

Yeah especially if the person manages to get a knife, something that looks like a bomb, or box cutter on board which with today's security is all to easy. Most passengers initial reaction would be to freeze up if a terrorist took a f/a hostage. Fortunately, F/As can no longer get into the flight deck without the pilots permission so they can't let the hijackers in under duress. (I'm not bashing f/as, anyone would have done the exact same thing the f/as on 9/11 did)

People can be trained to deal effectively with these situations, through months of martial arts training, but you can't learn to deal with it well in a 2 day self-defense course. I've heard about people who have taken these courses and when a real attack happens there not able to defend themselves at all. The training is just way to sterile and the training isn't realistic at all.

I'm sure passengers would help instantly with an air rage incident, but a hijacker with weapons determined to take over the plane I'm not so sure about...

I would actually like to see F/As be able to carry pepper spray. Its non-lethal and you can still be 10ft away from someone and affect them. There were some F/As on the 9/11 flights who saw the attacks happen in first class but weren't involved in them, who could have likely pulled out a bottle of pepper spray and sprayed it in the direction of the hijackers. Yeah a few passengers and crew may be sprayed but its worth it if it stops the hijackers. If the hijackers managed to get a hold of it and try to use it against the passengers and crew they couldn't do much with it. They still wouldn't be able to get into the flight deck. Also, think about the shoe bomber incident, when the f/a saw it she could have sprayed him with pepper spray instead of attacking him to stop him from detonating the bomb.



My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlineZappbrannigan From Australia, joined Oct 2008, 247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2841 times:



Quoting M11Stephen (Reply 13):
I would actually like to see F/As be able to carry pepper spray

A couple of problems with it - it works on most people, most of the time, but is no means completely reliable - and when you add amphetamine, which is widely used by attackers in these types of scenarios, you can simply fight through it. Spray causes nothing but pain - it doesn't restrict the body from actually doing anything (unlike, say, a taser - but that's a whole other argument).

Second problem, airlines hate the stuff being anywhere near their aircraft. There are issues with the aircon systems, and a very large risk of secondary exposure. So it's quite likely the end state is a load of sprayed pax and F/As in severe pain, and a few nasty guys who aren't affected by it in the first place. Even the airport police at most airports in this country carry foam instead of spray, due to the airports not allowing spray in their areas, or on aircraft.


User currently offlineIAirAllie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2836 times:



Quoting M11Stephen (Reply 13):
I would actually like to see F/As be able to carry pepper spray

Brilliant idea to release pepper spray in an enclosed area. We all breathe the same air on the airplane including the pilots you really want them incapacitated? I was in a medium sized room when my friend accidentally discharged her keychain pepper spray by accident. She only sprayed a tiny amount and it was awful. You would not want to opperate an aircraft in those conditions.


User currently offlineM11Stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2752 times:



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 15):
We all breathe the same air on the airplane including the pilots you really want them incapacitated?

Woops, I totally forgot about that! Yeah, I have also accidentally shot off my pepper spray too outside and I couldn't breathe at all. It would be terrible if that stuff got circulated into the flight deck.

Fortunately, there are lots of male F/As these days and I have seen quite a few that I'm sure were also body builders. I really hope F/As take it upon themselves to enroll in martial arts classes and work there way up to a black belt. The F/As are really on their own and Air Marshall's are almost non-existent. They only cover about 5% of flights.



My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
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