Glom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2803 posts, RR: 10 Posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3701 times:
If an airline had a dispatch reliability like Bristows of Scatsta have, they'd have gone to the wall even during the dot.com bubble.
It's a daily event. Delays due to a technical problem with choppers. Say what you want about airlines, but a blue carrier doesn't often delay flights due to aircraft technical problems, at not in my experience (of this kind of thing does happen many times, but on an apples and apples comparison, airlines have far, far fewer delays due to technical problems than Bristows).
There are a series of possibilities:
1) Bristows maintenance just suck.
2) The hanger is being shared with some Shetland ponies, who keep eating the rotors.
3) The pilots are sending the aircraft tech for things that airline pilots would gloss over.
4) Dispatch reliability is actually similar, but airlines have more spare aircraft available to compensate.
5) The S92 is an unreliable aircraft.
6) Helicopters in general are unreliable.
Flypig687 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 56 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3509 times:
Helicopters are not unreliable aircraft, however they require a lot more maintainence, more often. Not nearly as many moving parts in a plane as in a helicopter.
I know nothing about the company you are talking about, but if i had to guess they probably have a relatively small fleet, used often, and when only a few aircraft go down for maintainence it has a major effect. They might be able to account for this problem by staggering aircraft usage to always have ships up while others are in maintaince.
KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 5962 posts, RR: 4 Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3472 times:
It could just be a symptom of the underlying problem, too...perhaps the dispatch unreliability has something to do with the "toys" not being put away properly at night, or maintenance which should be preventative being exercised in a reactive manner?
You could take any aircraft type in the world, and follow the manufacturer's reccomendations to the "T", and still uncover a problem that is peculiar to a particular operator. Just ask SAS's regional affiliates who were flying Dash 8 Q400's about that... I'm sure that, given the time and an on-site engineering team, Bombardier could have uncovered what was causing the corrosion in the gear pins in that case...
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
Glom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2803 posts, RR: 10 Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3431 times:
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 3): It could just be a symptom of the underlying problem, too...perhaps the dispatch unreliability has something to do with the "toys" not being put away properly at night, or maintenance which should be preventative being exercised in a reactive manner?
Well they are building a new hanger at Scatsta, maybe it is the elements that's causing a problem at the moment. We'll see if dispatch reliability improves once the hanger becomes operational.
Larshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1220 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3397 times:
Helicopters are much more maintenace heavy than regular aircraft due to the fact that everything is shaking in a helicopter.
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 3):
You could take any aircraft type in the world, and follow the manufacturer's reccomendations to the "T", and still uncover a problem that is peculiar to a particular operator. Just ask SAS's regional affiliates who were flying Dash 8 Q400's about that... I'm sure that, given the time and an on-site engineering team, Bombardier could have uncovered what was causing the corrosion in the gear pins in that case...
It wasn't a regional affiliate who had the problems, it was SAS Danmark who had the problems.
2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8950 posts, RR: 62 Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3359 times:
Until we assign a specific definition to the term "unreliable", any replies will tend to be entirely subjective.
And even then, to what do we compare the reliability of helicopters? If we examine dispatch rate and compare it to fixed-wing airliners, it's rather apples & oranges. For example, what does it matter if the airliner has a better dispatch rate, when the airliner cannot complete the mission at hand?
Were such a comparison to be made, it would be more prudent to compare the dispatch rate of helicopters to that of other methods of transport that are able to complete the mission. Blimps, for example. Maybe powered-lift.
It's a bit like saying a glider is more reliable than a Bonanza. While it's undoubtedly true that gliders experience fewer mechanical failures, that statement is of little use, is it not?
Tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 81 Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3259 times:
"The thing is, helicopters are different from planes. An airplane by it's nature wants to fly, and if not interfered with too strongly by unusual events or by a deliberately incompetent pilot, it will fly. A helicopter does not want to fly. It is maintained in the air by a variety of forces and controls working in opposition to each other, and if there is any disturbance in this delicate balance the helicopter stops flying; immediately and disastrously. There is no such thing as a gliding helicopter. This is why being a helicopter pilot is so different from being an airplane pilot, and why in generality, airplane pilots are open, clear-eyed, buoyant extroverts and helicopter pilots are brooding introspective anticipators of trouble. They know if something bad has not happened it is about to."
- Harry Reasoner Feb 16, 1971
Bassbonebobo From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 66 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3172 times:
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 10): I suppose if you're looking for something that reliably descends...
The way this plane looks I wouldn't be surprised if it was an annual event.
Rule #176. Any device that can crawl across the table on medium, does not need to be brought into the office.
XT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3150 posts, RR: 4 Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3145 times:
Conventional planes have nice fixed wings to support the aircraft in the air, leaving failures in the engines or other systems far less nasty. Also much easier and less MX intensive to make sure the wings don't fall off, than a helicopers lifting surfaces.
So... you can bet a helicopter sees ALOT more inspections.
Shhpanked From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 69 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3127 times:
Quoting Flypig687 (Reply 1): Helicopters are not unreliable aircraft, however they require a lot more maintainence, more often. Not nearly as many moving parts in a plane as in a helicopter.
Technically all we need to comply with is the 100 hour and annual inspections, nothing different than the FW guys. That said, where I work, we also use an AAIP based off of the manufacturers maintenance recommendations which just adds a 50 hour inspection to the aforementioned.
Quoting 2H4 (Reply 7): Until we assign a specific definition to the term "unreliable", any replies will tend to be entirely subjective.
Yeah, for what it's worth in the last six months the helicopter I fly has only gone down once with a mechanical problem. The downwash from a company helicopter slammed the blades which weren't tied down and cracked the swash plate. So wouldn't fall into the category of reliability IMO.
Dragon6172 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1161 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3119 times:
Yes, but how often do wings fail in normal usage? Or vertical tails?
Rotor failures are 99% fatal, as are gearbox and tail rotor failures. You can land a plane with bits of wing, vertical tail and engine missing... if you have to!
(and I won't accept the AA A300 crash in NY as an example...)
Dragon6172 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1161 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3078 times:
Quoting Metroliner (Reply 15): Yes, but how often do wings fail in normal usage? Or vertical tails?
About as often as blades fly off of a rotor head?
Quoting Metroliner (Reply 15): Rotor failures are 99% fatal, as are gearbox and tail rotor failures. You can land a plane with bits of wing, vertical tail and engine missing... if you have to!
Depends on what kind of rotor system failure you are talking about. If you lost a blade it is about as fatal and as likely to happen as losing a wing. If you just clip the tips off... still be able to control your landing probably. Tail rotor failures are far from being 99% fatal (unless you are in a tandem rotor). They are more likely than losing the tail of an aircraft though.
The danger in flying helicopters comes more from the low altitudes they fly at, the fact they do not always land at nice open airports and have to avoid obstacles etc. I will say they are more labor intensive, many more moving parts and things wear out quicker due to the vibrations, etc.
Flypig687 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 56 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2975 times:
Quoting Alessandro (Reply 4): Depends which type, the Mil-17 is a workhorse made to last.
"Russian Helicopters may be 1/3 the price of American helicopters; however you need to buy 3 Russian helicopters. One to fly and two for parts"
Shhpanked From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 69 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2855 times:
Quoting Metroliner (Reply 14): Rotor failures are 99% fatal, as are gearbox and tail rotor failures. You can land a plane with bits of wing, vertical tail and engine missing... if you have to!
Like others have said a tail rotor failure is far from being fatal. Roll the throttle off and enter an auto. Simple.
...M/R and T/R transmission do happen but there is usually fair warning giving the pilot enough time to put the aircraft down safely. As for rotor blades flying off the rotor hub? Well I haven't heard of it happening but if it did it would surely be fatal.
Anyways, with ratings in both FW and RW if something were to occur in the air I'd want to be a helicopter not a plane.
2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8950 posts, RR: 62 Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2763 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD DATABASE EDITOR
Quoting Shhpanked (Reply 18): Like others have said a tail rotor failure is far from being fatal. Roll the throttle off and enter an auto. Simple.
And sometimes, forego the autorotation entirely and land like an airplane. I watched a Bell 230 do this once.
StealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5447 posts, RR: 49 Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2760 times:
Quoting Glom (Thread starter): 3) The pilots are sending the aircraft tech for things that airline pilots would gloss over.
Given the operating environment I believe they operate in, North Sea, Crap weather, Low alt.
I would if a pilot, and you as a regular passenger should thank them for it!
Cheers
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I'm sure that, given the time and an on-site engineering team, Bombardier could have uncovered what was causing the corrosion in the gear pins in that case...
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From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1220 posts, 
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And sometimes, forego the autorotation entirely and land like an airplane. I watched a Bell 230 do this once.
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