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Control Tower/Air Traffic Control - Language  
User currently offlineVietsky From Vietnam, joined Nov 2008, 94 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

Hi guys,

I was wondering what language the Control Tower and Air Traffic Control are using to communicate with Pilots if the Pilots are from the same country. Does it have to be in English as a standard?

For example: Will Control Tower in France will communicate with French pilots of Air France by French? or in my country, Vietnam. Will traffic control communicate with Vietnam Airlines pilots (of course the pilot is Vietnamese) by Vietnamese?

Thanks guys!

Vietsky

69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline9VSRH From Australia, joined Apr 2005, 132 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 32767 times:

The universal ATC language is English. However, in some countries, such as France, China, Spain (and some Latin American countries), and Russia pilots/controllers from the same country speak their own native languages.

User currently offlineDBCC From Switzerland, joined Nov 2007, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Vietsky (Thread starter):
was wondering what language the Control Tower and Air Traffic Control are using to communicate with Pilots if the Pilots are from the same country. Does it have to be in English as a standard?

Each state can define this for themselves, but English is a minimum requirement.

ICAO defines this:

"In which languages does a licence holder need to demonstrate proficiency?"
Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground.

http://www.icao.int/icao/en/trivia/peltrgFAQ.htm#20


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6392 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting 9VSRH (Reply 1):
and some Latin American countries

Yup, in Mexico Air Traffic Control is primarily in Spanish, and don't try speaking Spanish with them unless you know Spanish aviation terms (I tried it because I speak Spanish well enough to carry on a conversation, but I was thoroughly embarrased and had to revert to English for safety's sake when I realized I don't understand one bit of aviation terminology in Spanish    ). ATC remains in Spanish for all other aircraft/broken English for you if you try to speak English with them (there are some controllers down in Mexico I can just barely understand...and there are some controllers I can understand perfectly). This always worries me a bit, as you have no idea what's going on around you like you would when everyone is speaking the same language.

By the way, I like your screen name. My first 777 flight was on 9V-SRH, from SIN to PEN  

[Edited 2009-03-06 17:33:59]


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Although In INDIA , people speak many different languages,but when it comes to ATC its always Only in ENGLISH,apart from the customary NAMASHKAR.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1875 posts, RR: 42
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

A nice story from a teacher of mine who was flying to an airport in France, the controller refused to talk English, and used French. (Airport charts indicated English speaking controllers) When he told the controller (in English) that he was coming in for runway 06 instead of 24 the controller suddenly managed to speak English to correct him...


Nothing's worse then flying the same registration twice, except flying it 4 times..
User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting 9VSRH (Reply 1):
The universal ATC language is English. However, in some countries, such as France, China, Spain (and some Latin American countries), and Russia pilots/controllers from the same country speak their own native languages.

Indeed, which is a very very poor practice since that means not all pilots on frequency will have the necessary spatial awareness.

This incident at CDG best illustrates why it's better to stick to English.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20000525-0



A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlineVietsky From Vietnam, joined Nov 2008, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Thanks guys for the info. Really help.

Vietsky


User currently onlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4462 posts, RR: 76
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
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Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 5):
A nice story from a teacher of mine who was flying to an airport in France, the controller refused to talk English, and used French. (Airport charts indicated English speaking controllers) When he told the controller (in English) that he was coming in for runway 06 instead of 24 the controller suddenly managed to speak English to correct him...

The usual bar-bragging.
Your friend, if the story is true should have told you about his confiscated aircraft and lost licence for a major violation of airlaw : beginning an approach without clearance.
Of course, as it's another French-bashing story, it gets popular b***sh*t.

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 6):


This incident at CDG best illustrates why it's better to stick to English.

On the other hand, you could also mention the PanAM-KLM collision in which everybody was speaking English, and quite a few accidents, even in the US about misunderstood instructions.
See here :
http://aviation-safety.net/database/dblist.php?Event=ANW



Contrail designer
User currently offlineFlyMIA From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7176 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Pihero (Reply 8):

I don't think anyone here is bashing France its a problem in many countries. I hate it when I hear another language on ATC. They all have to known a decent amount of English to be pilots and ATC they should speak it for the sake of safety. At least at the large International Airports. Sure in a small regional airport in China or Colombia there is not much need as everyone is speaking the same language. But even listening to Caracas ATC or Bogota you will hear Spanish I find it unprofessional and dangerous.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineBE77 From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 32352 times:



Quoting 9VSRH (Reply 1):
The universal ATC language is English. However, in some countries, such as France, China, Spain (and some Latin American countries), and Russia pilots/controllers from the same country speak their own native languages

Canada as well - French or English are used within Quebec. The awareness of those around is brought up from time to time, but in fact rarely if ever seems to result in anything untoward.



Tower, Affirmitive, gear is down and welded
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 32306 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 3):
and had to revert to English for safety's sake w

That's why we don't won't a pilot who is fluent in another language to use it on the radio because the other pilot won't understand either. Now you're relying on one pilot to know what's been said.


User currently offlineSkyman From Germany, joined May 2006, 494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 32157 times:

It is a safety issue and a problem. In Germany except for Flight Information (VFRtraffic) English will always be used.
@ Pihero
Didn´t the controllers of Paris Orly go on strike because they were forced to use English?! I find it very unprofessinal not to use English for ATC clearences, a joke ok but never a clearence.


User currently onlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4462 posts, RR: 76
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 32023 times:
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Quoting Skyman (Reply 12):
Didn´t the controllers of Paris Orly go on strike because they were forced to use English?

Not to my recollection. There was, though, a refusal from French pilots to use English in French airspace.
What is amusing here is the assumption that Englishb would cure all the safety problems around an airport.
Those who think that are sadly mistaken : I find it equally unprofessional that my English doesn't allow me to understand half of the com traffic in US airspace : IFR use of VFR reporting points, local procedures amounting to a particular dialect, refusal to adhere to published and universally agrred upon ICAO phraseology.....
I also find unprofessional the US aircrews keeping their altitude/speed clearances read-back habits around international airports.
Around Montreal / Quebec, have just a short listening to AF crews...the vast majority use English as, once again, the accent and phraseology of French-speaking ATCOs is hard to understand ( I remembered once being sent to "tablier"XXX and it took us quite a long time to figure that "tablier" was just a straight translation of "apron"...
Sorry, guys, the problem is vastly more complicated than you all think.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineGoingAround From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 31878 times:



Quoting Pihero (Reply 13):
Not to my recollection. There was, though, a refusal from French pilots to use English in French airspace.
What is amusing here is the assumption that Englishb would cure all the safety problems around an airport.
Those who think that are sadly mistaken : I find it equally unprofessional that my English doesn't allow me to understand half of the com traffic in US airspace : IFR use of VFR reporting points, local procedures amounting to a particular dialect, refusal to adhere to published and universally agrred upon ICAO phraseology.....
I also find unprofessional the US aircrews keeping their altitude/speed clearances read-back habits around international airports.

No offence, but you seem to have some personal issue with the use of English in ATC, while defending to the hilt the use of French?

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that there is something inherently superior about the use of English in ATC. Merely that for the purpose of worldwide continuity and spacial awareness for all pilots there should be a universal language. Surely the most intelligent solution to this would be to use one of the most widely understood and spoken languages in the world (Granted, English in may not be the most spoken language, however I think it's justifiably the most understood and most taught second-language)

Personally, I don't think there is even a case for everyone NOT using a universal language, for all pilots, airlines and aircraft at all airports in the world. I'm surprised to hear that French Pilot's threw their toys out the pram about using their native language in their own country? I would expect professionals to appreciate the reasoning behind such a request?

Just my  twocents 

Alex


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25372 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 31816 times:



Quoting BE77 (Reply 10):
Quoting 9VSRH (Reply 1):
The universal ATC language is English. However, in some countries, such as France, China, Spain (and some Latin American countries), and Russia pilots/controllers from the same country speak their own native languages

Canada as well - French or English are used within Quebec.

And in the Ottawa region.


User currently offlineHAWK21m From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 31781 times:



Quoting GoingAround (Reply 14):
I would expect professionals to appreciate the reasoning behind such a request

What better example of using one common language as in INDIA.Inspite of numerous options.
If its going to encourage & contribute to Flight safety,it should be used.
regds
MEL.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently onlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4462 posts, RR: 76
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 31739 times:
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Quoting GoingAround (Reply 14):

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that there is something inherently superior about the use of English in ATC.

That would prove that my English is seriously lacking, then ! (but is it really the case ?)
Defending to the hilt the use of French ?
Hardly. First, you have to know ( and no one had mentioned it in this thread), AF crews would use English for a Pan Pan or a Mayday Mayday call as they could involve some deviations to the air traffic procedures (that's SOP), and thus fulfilling all the necessary information to the aircrews in the same airspace.
What is bugging in this thread is that people still see ATC as it was some forty years ago...Things have changed in most of the world axcept in Africa, TCAS is about mandatory everywhere and ADSB is around the corner...with the use of ACARS, no one over the Atlantic knows where the others are while not so long ago the oceanic clearance would reveal one's route companions right from the beginning... Have these issues been addressed here ?
As for English...why not ? Problem is that I understand a lot more Spanish or Portuguese radio traffic in/over Spain and Portugal than I do generally a US ATCO, be he/she in NYC, Chicago or Dallas...and may I remind you that the RT English phraseology requires everybody's adherence ? E VRY BO DY... until such time, I suggest that you leave the French alone...for a change.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineP3Orion From United States of America, joined May 2006, 544 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 31724 times:



Quoting Pihero (Reply 17):
Problem is that I understand a lot more Spanish or Portuguese radio traffic in/over Spain and Portugal than I do generally a US ATCO, be he/she in NYC, Chicago or Dallas...and may I remind you that the RT English phraseology requires everybody's adherence ?

Just curious, but why do you have a problem with FAA controllers and our phraseology?



"Did he say strap in or strap on?"
User currently offlineGoingAround From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 31716 times:

Pihero, I think you've misunderstood my point.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 17):
Hardly. First, you have to know ( and no one had mentioned it in this thread), AF crews would use English for a Pan Pan or a Mayday Mayday call as they could involve some deviations to the air traffic procedures (that's SOP), and thus fulfilling all the necessary information to the aircrews in the same airspace.

No-one has disputed that AF (or any other crew for that matter) wouldn't comply with SOP for declaring an emergency purely on the basis of language? The point I was making was related to general, every-day situational awareness that would be improved if everyone was using a 'standard' language. As you pointed out, I fully agree that for this to be most effective; phraseology across the board should be uniform, whether it be in a country who's native language is not English, or an English speaking country where irregularities in RT have become the norm (I have spoken to a BA pilot in the past who claimed the standard ATC in China was more consistent that than in the USA, just to give a representation of a non-English speaking country vs. an English speaking one, however, I am in now way suggesting this is a representative opinion of ATC in the US, merely a point of view I have been told of)

Quoting Pihero (Reply 17):
TCAS is about mandatory everywhere and ADSB is around the corner

While this is true, I don't believe this can be presented as an argument against a single language for use in ATC. While these systems have greatly improved conflict mitigation they should still be seen as a safety net for when situations arise when ATC separation has not been provided correctly, not as the primary method of avoidance? The goal of ATC is to prevent systems like TCAS from ever having to be used.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 17):
roblem is that I understand a lot more Spanish or Portuguese radio traffic in/over Spain and Portugal than I do generally a US ATCO, be he/she in NYC, Chicago or Dallas...and may I remind you that the RT English phraseology requires everybody's adherence ?

I agree completely; I am not suggesting a single language is the solution to all of these problems if it is not regulated or consistent across the board.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 17):
E VRY BO DY... until such time, I suggest that you leave the French alone...for a change.

I'm sorry? I have read and re-read this thread and can't find any selective criticism of the French, nor have I noticed any vehemently anti-French references on any of these boards? I fail to see why you feel the French are a victim in this discussion?

If I have mis-interpreted any of the above please feel free to point it out, again, my intention in this discussion was not to cause offence to any other nationalities or languages? But I can't help but feel the last part of your post has picked up on some unfounded idea that France is ALWAYS victimised? Pretty poor mentality IMHO.

All the best,
Alex

[Edited 2009-03-23 16:15:34]

User currently onlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4462 posts, RR: 76
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 31695 times:
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GoingAround,
Thanks for your post.
Looking at your avowed age and experience, I'd say that you have no idea how congested the traffic around an international airport is, how many different frequencies are used and how difficult is to keep tags on everybody around you. Difficult enough to get the messages addressed to you, let alone mind those for other aircraft.
Get one day an airband radio and monitor the traffic into your local international airport...See how many messages have to be repeated because the aircrew didn't pick them out first time...
Then imagine that you are missing half of the traffic as the departures are on another frequency...knowing fully well that conflicts are more likely to arise between DEPs vs ARRs rather than airplanes on the same trajectory.
As for perceived French bashing, just see on this thread posts # 5 and 6.

Quoting GoingAround (Reply 19):
nor have I noticed any vehemently anti-French references on any of these boards?

You must be blind or dyslexic.

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 18):
Just curious, but why do you have a problem with FAA controllers and our phraseology?

because it's not standard ICAO, or simply standard as about every airport has its own idiosyncrasies, its own lingo...etc...It's probably fine for US pilots used to that traffic but hell for any foreigner.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineLevg79 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 994 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 31657 times:

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what language ATC communications are in in Latvia? I know it has to be English for foreign airlines, but what about airlines like BT or SU?

This thread also reminds me of an old ATC joke:

Lufthansa (in German): "Ground, what is our start clearance time?"
Ground (in English): "If you want an answer you must speak in English."
Lufthansa (in English): "I am a German, flying a German airplane, in Germany. Why must I speak English?"
Unknown voice from another plane (in a beautiful British accent): "Because you lost the bloody war."


Leo.



A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
User currently offlineSkyman From Germany, joined May 2006, 494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 31638 times:



Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 18):
Just curious, but why do you have a problem with FAA controllers and our phraseology?

because it's not standard ICAO, or simply standard as about every airport has its own idiosyncrasies, its own lingo...etc...It's probably fine for US pilots used to that traffic but hell for any foreigner.

I also heard that from different sources. The accent can be very difficult for others to understand. I think everybody all over the world shoud use standard ICAO phraseology.


User currently offlineGoingAround From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 31622 times:



Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
Looking at your avowed age and experience, I'd say that you have no idea how congested the traffic around an international airport is, how many different frequencies are used and how difficult is to keep tags on everybody around you. Difficult enough to get the messages addressed to you, let alone mind those for other aircraft.

So my age makes me unable to comment on any of the above? Being between the age range of 16-20, despite the fact I hold a full UK PPL license, makes me less able to comment on matters involving ATC than say a 40 year old member of these boards with no aeronautical experience at all? I have visited NATS Swanwick ATC Centre and seen the traffic flow into the London TMA during one of the busiest parts of the day, so I am fully aware of how congested traffic around one of the busiest international airports is.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
Get one day an airband radio and monitor the traffic into your local international airport...See how many messages have to be repeated because the aircrew didn't pick them out first time...

Not including my visit to Swanwick, using an airband radio I have listened regally to controllers manning the Hurn, Seaford and Lydd sectors of LATCC and cannot say your comment is a noticeable issue during nearly all of the transmissions. Most frequently, the aircrews who seem to have the biggest problem regarding mis-understanding of RT communications are those whose native language is vastly different to latin-based European languages (Such as China, Russia, Middle Eastern and some African Carriers) not those from France, Germany etc.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
Then imagine that you are missing half of the traffic as the departures are on another frequency...knowing fully well that conflicts are more likely to arise between DEPs vs ARRs rather than airplanes on the same trajectory.

I am fully aware that this is the case, but again, because of the wide use of SID's within the UK this is not an issue I have come across regularly proving a problem for ATCO's. From my experience anyway.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
You must be blind or dyslexic.

Hmmm. I am neither blind nor dyslexic, but still have not come across any of this 'discrimination' which you seem to think is prevalent on these boards.

Again, I think you are detracting away from the point I made that if all aircrews used one universal language, with uniform phraseology and irregular RT kept to a minimum, that is would be effective in increasing spacial awareness and general safety, this is not about any one language being superior to another. Are you seriously suggesting that individual countries maintaining their native language for ATC would improve safety and traffic flow? What then when (perish the thought) an aircraft flies to a foreign country where their language is different from the one used?

All the best,
Alex


User currently onlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4462 posts, RR: 76
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 31596 times:
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Quoting GoingAround (Reply 23):
So my age makes me unable to comment on any of the above? Being between the age range of 16-20, despite the fact I hold a full UK PPL license, makes me less able to comment on matters involving ATC than say a 40 year old member of these boards with no aeronautical experience at all?

No. Only that your argument is based on hearsay and not personal experience.
Your argument was very much valid some thirty years ago. It's becoming less and less so nowadays.
We've come to a situation in which much, if not all, the responsibility for collision avoidance is left to the ATCOs, if only because they are the only ones with a picture of the environment. Every time I take an airplane, I know that I have a contract with them and basically, second-guessing them would amount to a high degree of death wish.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
Then imagine that you are missing half of the traffic as the departures are on another frequency...knowing fully well that conflicts are more likely to arise between DEPs vs ARRs rather than airplanes on the same trajectory.

This is one of the points that have contradicted your argument : If you're really interested in having the SA for your trajectory, tough !, you'll be missing the most dangerous half of the traffic (for, contrarily to your fellows on the same frequency following/preceding you like on a rail ) as their flight paths are different...protected ?... you should hope so.
Modern ATC procedures are quite universal nowadays : for arrivals, several holding fixes from which initial arrival routes converge towards the final approach queue...and yes, I would manage a better flight if I knew the position/speed/altitude of the aircraft in front, but most of the time, I'm constrained by my clearance : imposed speed up to a fixed distance from the runway for instance : my ATCO is managing the spacing and if visually or through the TCAS I feel he'she is going too far, I have the liberty of choosing another solution...so how many aircraft was I concentrating on ? As far as I know, only one.

Quoting GoingAround (Reply 23):
if all aircrews used one universal language, with uniform phraseology and irregular RT kept to a minimum, that is would be effective in increasing spacial awareness and general safety

Contrarily to your perception, I agree with that, but a lot of people should see inside their own house first.



Contrail designer
25 DiamondFlyer : So what that American ATC doesn't conform to ICAO standards. I'd venture to bet there are many, many other FAA related things that don't either. Last
26 Lowrider : No, no, no. It is perfectly reasonable to require US controllers to conform to a standard. Something as safety sensitive as ATC communications is no
27 Skyman : Thanks for the good post Lowrider. I can completely agree with you. @ DiamondFlyer Even if your post made me laugh it is useless for the discussion an
28 GLEN : Tks a lot for this great statement. I was reading this discussion from time to time. Didn't think about participating as there are so many unreasonab
29 DiamondFlyer : Alright, fine, make English the language, and make it standard across the whole world. The problem isn't with English itself, its how the language is
30 Lowrider : I am going to assume that the vast majority of your flying experience has taken place in South Florida. It would be a mistake to judge the rest of th
31 Pihero : Lowrider, Thanks for your post, and coming from a pilot who's seen other skies, it's priceless. The problem is that we are very much entrenched in our
32 GLEN : Sure, this should be a minimum requirement and would be great it it would be so. But according to this statement I suppose you havent't yet seen a lo
33 Pihero : One last remark. ICAO R/T English is very basic, so basic that its level won't allow you to order a beer in English. Basic words : Climb, descend (do
34 DiamondFlyer : Wait, wait, wait. You want to impose a standardized form of English across the world, yet continue to allow your country to use it's local dialect. T
35 Pilotpip : Pihero is right on here Diamond. Go spend a couple hours listening to ORD tower if it's available. Then take a listen to ground and see if you can kee
36 Cloudyapple : No one has said that. What we are saying is that sticking to one langauge that everybody understands is safer and hence preferable to multiple langau
37 P3Orion : How do you propose we work Ground? I see you fly E170's so you must be familiar with the operation. Anyway, I know there are differences in phraseolo
38 GLEN : Well it's not all different, but some differences can be real safety-issues. For example: In U.S. for a climb or descend clearence it just says "main
39 Flyingbronco05 : This is the reason I hate flying into Montreal. The controllers are all speaking french so you have no idea what is going on. You call up in English a
40 Pihero : There wouldn't be any problem if the R/T procedures are adhered to by everybody. The differences you mentioned just add a bit of confusion to non-US
41 P3Orion : In the U.S. climb and descent clearences are read " United three twenty two descend and maintain one one thousand" or "climb and maintain one one tho
42 GLEN : I didn't want to blame the U.S.-system and it's nice to read that the words climb/descend should be included in the clearence. But here are many cont
43 P3Orion : The mark of a true professional is to say things by the book and not sound like "Top Gun." Unfortunately, there are controllers who put down their cow
44 Skyman : One can discuss if ICAO or FAA is better but I have one good example. The FAA have lots of trouble with runway incursions and I think that the fact th
45 DiamondFlyer : Really? Thats crazy, and would slow down traffic so much. I can't tell you how many times I've been number 1 for takeoff, and get the following. Towe
46 P3Orion : I disagree, it would create freq. congestion and result in more go arounds which could create an unsafe situation.
47 IAHFLYR : No should in the handbook, clearly states "climb/descend" not simply maintain unless you are restating an already issued altitude. Right until the ti
48 GLEN : I must admit, at the beginning you have to get used to these multiple clearences once you fly overseas, but I think it works quite well and is not th
49 Pihero : From personal observation, it's the latter. Some pilots feel it is more comfortable at low speeds, as the 330 climbs like a bat out of hell ...but co
50 ManuCH : It's the same in Switzerland. Eventhough I've been issued "HB-XXX, runway about to be vacated, runway 19, cleared to land" a couple of times now, whe
51 Skyman : Yes not allowed here and not a big problem
52 DiamondFlyer : Seems to me that 1. it adds quite a bit of unneeded radio chatter and 2. could cause a slight decrease in number of operations that you can run per h
53 LHR27C : Radio chatter is probably increased, but on the other hand there is the whole debate about whether you should be "cleared" to land when there could b
54 P3Orion : The Expressway Visual RWY 31 is issued to IFR traffic. In the U.S., Visual approaches, which is an IFR clearence, are mixed with ILS approaches all t
55 ManuCH : Interesting: why no "behind" (conditional clearances) - but then landing clearances while not being #1 are allowed? Where's the difference?
56 P3Orion : The difference is control of the situation remains with the controller when clearing an aircraft to land number two, three, four. With "Behind the la
57 Pihero : Sorry, P3Orion, I didn't make myself clear : In many ways, the procedures aredifferent in the US compared to what we, international aircrews are used
58 LongHauler : This is quite common everywhere else on the earth outside of the United States! At most foreign airports ATC will communicate in English, and the loc
59 GLEN : Well this is maybe not what we are used to in the rest of the world. But nevertheless it is correct as the Transition Level is FL180 / Transition Alt
60 Pihero : Yes, in the US. Not anywhere else, which was my point.
61 P3Orion : Why wouldn't you want the most current/accurate altimeter setting for the sector/airspace you are flying in when you're below FL180?
62 Pihero : Listen. The transition level around here is FL 50. Someone is cleared to FL 60, which he acknowledges as 6000 ft. Suppose, as it has happened quite a
63 P3Orion : I guess I don't understand the point you are making. It sounds like a number of pilots from Europe have a problem with FAA controllers and our proced
64 GLEN : Of course you want it. In the states you need different settings as you cover quite a distance while climbing or descending below FL180. In other cou
65 GLEN : Uups, there have been some posts crossing mine. Well sure there might be some, But I don't understand Pihero in this way. As far as I understand, he (
66 DiamondFlyer : Which, is due to the dialect of the English language you were taught/learned. Plus, its a heck of a lot easier to understand inflection in spoken lan
67 GLEN : Well it wouldn't work perfect, and there would be always misunderstandings, errors and so on. But it would for sure work better than having no standa
68 Pilotpip : And once you are familiar, you realize how fantastic they do things up there. It's organized chaos. The problem is that it takes a while to learn the
69 Aaron747 : Ugly American syndrome strikes again. In Japan, all ATCOs and pilots are now required to attain ICAO level 4 English proficiency. Do you have any ide
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