Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Bullets In The Airplane  
User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (13 years 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1685 times:

Okay, now that the pilot's union has forwarded their request, somebody knowledgable tell me their thoughts before I make a fool of myself in debate....

Question: If a gun goes off in an airliner at cruise speed and altitude, what is the most likely result?

Please think through:

-Cabin window

-Cockpit window

-Fuselage at a seam...

Is this a BAD idea..guns in the cockpit?

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePmk From United States of America, joined May 1999, 664 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (13 years 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1559 times:

Not as bad as you think. It most probably wouldn't pop the seam, it might break the windows though. However with the new sinter bullets, it wouldn't even break a window.

Peter


User currently offlineMr Spaceman From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 2787 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (13 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1535 times:

Hi guys.

I read in a local news paper that the AOPA is considering a new training program for airline pilots that will train them to "fight back" instead of cooperating with highjackers.

Now that it has been made very clear that highjackers could be suicidal terrorists' who wish to use the aircraft as a deadly bomb, instead of wanting the pilots to land safely, (to fullfill their political or financial demands), airline pilots could be trained to defend their cockpit with their axe and to "depressurize" the cabin, in order to suddenly incompacitate the highjackers.

Plus, U.S. president Bush made it very clear during his recent speech to congress, that armed "Air Marshals" will now be present on certain flights.

So...If there will already be guns in the cabin with undercover air marshals...why not in the cockpit? I'm sure that some pilots would want a firearm hidden up front, and some pilots wouldn't. I'm also sure that if the aircraft is to be depresssurized, the pilots would rather it be done with the flip of a switch, not a bullet.

If I was an airline pilot today, after what's happened, I would want a 9mm handgun with 12 rounds in the mag, to protect my passengers and crew. I'd rather pull a trigger (If I had to), than swing an axe. That's my opinion.

Chris  Smile






"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
User currently offlineMr Spaceman From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 2787 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (13 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1512 times:

Hello again.

>Pmk, what is a "sinter bullet"? I'm very curious. Is it a bullet that has a plastic head (ball), instead of lead or copper?

Chris



"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (13 years 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1513 times:

I stand by my original post...and question: Is it smart?

What the hell good is a gun if a blown out cockpit window sucks both pilots and bandits out? or are these the type of guns that can be fired easily from a strapped in forward facing position.

Can an explosive decompression caused by a bullet fired by a pilot do the job the terrorists came aboard to do....destroy the airplane?

If the answer is not likely, then perhaps weapons up front are a good idea. If the answer is anything else, maybe it's not...


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (13 years 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1503 times:

Pilot with no or little training with a gun in a situation with 100s of innocent passengers and maybe 2 hijackers with hostages. Enough said.

User currently offlineTwotterwrench From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (13 years 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1503 times:

The pilot's primary responsiblity is to fly the aircraft not play superhero of the sky. The only SENSIBLE solution is to place an armed and TRAINED sky marshall on the flight and let them deal with the law enforcement issues. Most pilot's have neither the proper training nor judgement to be able to properly draw and control a weapon of any kind in an adrenaline charged situation like these. BAD, BAD, BAD idea. Leave the dirty harry stuff to those who are trained and able to do it properly.

User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (13 years 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1485 times:

Twotterwrench,

Well said. I agree 100%. One other issue is that if pilot's were required to carry a firearm, I would guess that some would be out of a job. For instance I would assme that a clean criminal record and perhaps a background check may uncover something that makes a pilot ineligible for the opertion of a firearm.

How can a hole affect an airplane? The possibilities are endless. Imagine if a bullet penetrated some electrical equipment. Or if it hit a control cable. Structural integrity would probably not suffer but there is no guarantee.

Here's a short demonstration about the effects of holes in the fuselage that you can try with a sheet of paper. Start with a sheet of 8 1/2 x 11 (or equivalent for our European friends). Grasp each end and pull abruptly several times. You'll find that its hard to tear the paper.

Now make a hole approximately 2 inches in diameter in the center of the paper and repeat the pull test. You'll find that the paper is much easier to pull apart.

The reason? When an airplane pressurizes the fuselage reacts much like a balloon. The metal skins are stretched. The tensile properties of the metal prevent the skins from tearing apart. When a hole exists, there is less material along each axis, therefore less tensile strength.

So how do they accomodate fuselage holes for antennas etc.??

When you make a hole in a fuselage, you have to replace the strength that was was removed. This is down by re-enforcing the hole with another piece of metal commonly known as a "doubler". A doubler surrounds the original hole and translates the force "around" the hole. Of course severl fasteners (like rivets) have to hold the tranfer the force from the skin to the doubler. The rivets are under shearing force. The number and size of the rivets are dependant on the tensile strength which has to be restored.

To demonstrate the effectiveness of a doubler, redo the above demonstration, but before you try to tear the paper with a hole in it, re-enforce the hole by surrounding it with scotch tape. You'll find that most (if not all) of the strength is restored.

So...knowing that can we guess what the effects of a little hole on the fuselage is? Not 100%



User currently offlineJsuen From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (13 years 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1462 times:

Airplane skins are reenforced to prevent catastrophic failure in the event of a skin tear. Tears are designed to propagate along the skin until they reach a tear strap and stop to prevent exactly the problem Airplay talks about.

Due to manufacturing and inspection problems, Aloha 243 suffered a catastrophic in-flight failure when multiple cracks, due to corrosion and manufacturing problems caused massive disbonding of the skin. The airplane lost, basically, all the structure above the first class section. Due to structure loss, the rear of the plane drooped one meter. The plane landed, and the only fatality was a flight attendent who was sucked out. Of course, I wouldn't try this on any airplane, but is an example of how much a plane can stand.

A single bullet through the skin won't cause decompression. The outflow valves vent more air than a small hole.


User currently offlineJG From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (13 years 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 1428 times:

I don't care to engage in a discussion of being a "Superhero of the Sky" but I would prefer to be able to defend my life, and by default the lives of any passengers, to be able to return to my family. If that means having weapon superiority even if only as a deterrent, so be it. Personally, I fly airplanes for a living not ego.

On the subject of aircraft damage in the event of weapon discharge. As a reasonably avid shooter I am experienced with the maintenance and use of handguns. It is widely known that ammunition exists that rapidly disintegrates upon hitting a hard target without causing much damage. This same ammunition, upon hitting a soft target tranfers all of its energy to the target (read: no exit wound). I own this type of ammunition for my own home defense weapon.

I don't think that everyone should carry and I am not here to offer any comment on perceived US 2nd Ammendment rights. I will say that it is not a bad idea if the individual receives proper training and maintains proficiency. I will also say that it is naive to expect an existing or future Air Marshall staff to cover just the THOUSANDS of flights that the company for which I work operates everyday...

$.02
JG


User currently offlinePmk From United States of America, joined May 1999, 664 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (13 years 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 1400 times:

A "sinter" bullet is made of small lead pellets held together with a binder. It causes MASSIVE flesh wounds, however shooting it against a window the pieces fragment and the energy is spent. It is the perfect solution to this. To all those who think that a pilot is REQUIRED to do this is crazy; it should be an option. I also believe that MOST pilots would be willing to attend a 2 day training course to learn how to use the weapon effectively. My belief is no training no gun in the cockpit, just that simple. It's not a bad idea, sorry gang.

Peter


User currently offlineTwotterwrench From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (13 years 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 1400 times:

Great, now the pilots have to go to extra training and maintain proficiency. They cry about having to work more than 10 days a month as it is now. Can you imagine how much money ALPA is going to demand if the pilots are "required" to be proficient with firearms as well. As I said before, there is nothing good at all about this idea...BAD,BAD,BAD idea...

User currently offlinePmk From United States of America, joined May 1999, 664 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (13 years 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 1392 times:

I didn't say I liked the options here, I don't think it should be REQUIRED for pilots to carry a sidearm, it should be optional. If you choose the option you SHOULD be required to have firearm training. What's your solution?

Peter


User currently offlineTwotterwrench From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (13 years 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 1388 times:

Solution:
1- Pilot flies the airplane.. that's his job...
2- Sky Marshall deals with the bad guy.. that's his job

It's the ONLY solution that makes any sense.


User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (13 years 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 1377 times:

Jseun

Yah, you're right. I think most of us realize that *most* of the time a gunshot would not result in a catastrophic failure altough there is no guarantee of the extent of flying lead in the fuselage. But wasn't that a neat demonstration?
 Smile



User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (13 years 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 1373 times:

One thing nobody has addressed is when the aircaft flys to a country other than the US. Will Canada allow a pilot with a sidearm come in to the country???



User currently offlineTripleseven From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 118 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (13 years 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 1368 times:

So many questions to add to Airplay's:

Would pilots flying, say SFO-LHR on UA be allowed to take the siderms away from the airport? I'd think they would have to secure them before leaving the premises.

Would US pilots be only permitted to carry the sidearms when at the airport or aboard a plane? What about concealed?

Would non US based carriers, such as BA become inviting targets if US pilots carry sidearms and British, Canadian etc. don't? With all of the non US based airlines over US and Canadian airspace, how does the FAA solve that problem?



User currently offlineMr Spaceman From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 2787 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (13 years 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 1370 times:

Hi guys.

On the TV news today. It was reported that the ALPA has stated, "most of it's members are in favour of the proposal for more secured cockpit doors AND firearms in the cockpit".

Naturally, a quick training course on the use of a sidearm would be nessesary.

Suddenly, things have changed in the world of airlines, and especially that of the airline pilots. This cockpit firearm possibility will be their choice.

It was mentioned above that if 2 highjackers tried to take over an airliner...the undercover sky marshals would take care of the situation, and the flying should be left to the pilots. Sure, in a perfect world. Let me remind you, that of the 4 airliners that were just crashed by terrorists, 3 of those aircraft had 5 terrorists on board, and the fourth had 4 of these maniacs! >>> I agree that the pilots' job "should" be to just fly the aircraft, however, it is quite clear that life in the skies has suddenly changed. A world wide WAR has been declared!

I hope and pray that this will never happen, but, imagine that you're an airline pilot cruising onroute over North America, when suddenly you hear gun shots back in the cabin, between highjackers and sky marshals...and the sky marshals lose the fight. Where do you think the highjackers are going next? That's right. Your cockpit! What are you going to defend yourself with if they make it through the door? Your hand with some skin on it!

If the airline pilots are seriously considering having a gun in their cockpit. Let them. If it makes them feel more safe.

Guys, that's my last input towards this very tricky topic. We all have the right to our own views. Now I would like to continue learning technical info about what make these big beautiful jets fly!

Take Care

Chris  Smile



"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
User currently offlineDE727UPS From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 814 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (13 years 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 1359 times:

HA HA...the way Twotter talks about pilots all the time...I'm not surprized he doesn't want us to be armed....


User currently offlineTwotterwrench From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (13 years 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 1356 times:

Why would I want that? Morons like you have a hard enough time just flying the damn thing...


User currently offlineBill Bob From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (13 years 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1349 times:

Twotterwrench is always exhibiting a large case of "Sour Grapes" when it comes to the cockpit crews. A frustrated wanna be that never made it.. Poor crybaby.  Smile

User currently offlineTwotterwrench From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (13 years 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1347 times:

yep bill, you know me so well. I actually have been flying aircraft since the age of 6. I have experience in 20 different types of aircraft including light turbine twins. I have over 1400 hours, most of it in Alaska (where most pilots on this forum couldn't do it.) I am rated for floats, wheels and skis. I have an external load permit based on demonstrated ability for when I am flying floats. I hold a first class medical because I choose to maintain one. Don't tell me I am a wanna be. I could have flown for a living, but I think that "driving a bus" would take all the fun out of it. Fact is, the bigger the airplane is the easier it is to fly. (any honest pilot will tell you this.) I fly as often as I like to and go where I want to go when I want to go there. I am a mechanic by choice becuase I enjoy the technical challenge and the rewards that go with it. So, next time, little boy, ask a little about me before you go trashing me, or better yet, just shut the fuck up.

User currently offlineBill Bob From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (13 years 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1346 times:

You make me laugh, first of all if you put any credence in what the profile says about me or anyone else I truly feel sorry for your sorry ass. I'm not impressed with your flying and 1400 hours would not make a pimple on the ass of most airline first Officers. In fact it would not get you through the door. Hope you don't get a sore arm trying to pat yourself on the back. You complain about ALPA, bet you do not belong to IAM either. Suggest you go to bed and get up on the other side tomorrow.  Smile

User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (13 years 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 1325 times:

Fights between pilots, especially between left and right seat are legendary. We can't even have a discussion in this forum without pilots almost coming to blows (verbally).

Imagine having a gun in the cockpit in the heat of the moment......




User currently offlineJETPILOT From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3130 posts, RR: 29
Reply 24, posted (13 years 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 1322 times:

Twotterwrench......good to see you havent changed. Just as happy as always.

 Big thumbs up

(You'll have to use your imagination on this one....I wasn't able to find the little blue f*cker with the finger up I was thinking of)

JET


25 Twotterwrench : Missed you too jet...
26 Seseal : Hi there! Well, good point for discussion. Anyway the Devil has a variety of scenarios to play. Nobody will predict every possible way a catastrophe m
27 Post contains images JG : With all the reality and talk of death lately, it is nice to see some life back in this forum... welcome back to some that I have not read for a while
28 Fly_guy : I am a gunner's mate in the navy and have some knowledge concerning this. No doubt a regular supersonic, full metal jacket bullet would be kinda dange
29 Fly_guy : Soon I will be in position to attend various types of flight training programs. I hold a pvt now and considering a change of careers in light of what
30 Airplay : Here comes the "Liberal" label. It was only a matter of time. It comes out whenever guns are discussed. It's a convenient way of labeling anyone oppos
31 Twotterwrench : Hey, i am no liberal and no fan of gun control. I believe everyone should have has many guns as they would personally like to have. I just don't think
32 Post contains images JG : Oh, please lighten up... I was just trying to hook someone and it happened to be you. Have a good night, this thread has pretty much run its course.
33 JG : Wow, to that I agree. UNtrained and UNprepared is a problem and not what I would endorse. We may differ in that I do support packing heat when trained
34 Metwrench : Nobody has addressed Heavymetel's original question. Gunshot through a cabin window? Most cabin windows are made from stressed acryilic plastic. This
35 Fr8tdog : I have seen what a 44mag does to a cockpit side window. All 5 rounds only went about 3/4 through the used side screen. This was done for fun by some o
36 Heavymetal : Excellent posts, Metwrench and Fr8tdog....thanks for some detail rather than emotion. My own personal view is simple. The weakest link right now in th
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Bullets In The Airplane
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
What Is This In The Delta MD-11 Cockpit? posted Mon Oct 30 2006 10:11:58 by MD11Fanatic
RVR Fog And Holding In The Stack - Questions posted Mon Sep 25 2006 21:35:59 by Julianuk
Experience In The Purchase Dept Of An Airline? posted Thu Aug 24 2006 09:04:45 by Nohag
Do Pilots Use The Handholds In The Cockpit? posted Tue Aug 8 2006 17:08:56 by MechEngineer
Pilot Hiring In The Future posted Mon Jul 17 2006 23:59:07 by AirWillie6475
A Hole In The CRJ Fuselage? posted Thu Jul 13 2006 07:30:54 by CYEGsTankers
Good Climate For New Start Up Airlines In The US? posted Wed Jun 28 2006 15:25:14 by Keesje
Loadmaster IN The Air posted Mon Jun 19 2006 10:51:41 by Loadmaster
Smoke In The Cockpit posted Mon May 22 2006 09:21:09 by AirWillie6475
In The Cruise Engine Failure Twin Question posted Mon May 22 2006 00:24:08 by JulianUK

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format