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A300,take Off No Flaps?  
User currently offlineSoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 9137 times:

Can anyone shed some light on A300 take off certifications for no flap take offs...does this exist? I just viewed an image shot by a passenger of a A300 shot over the wing shortly after rotation and the flaps are clean...does appear to have leading edge slats extended that I can tell but no flaps?

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJush From Germany, joined Apr 2005, 1636 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9116 times:

Yes the A300 is certified to t/o with 0 flaps. Can't give you any details but I'm sure some here can. This question was asked a lot since ages so you will get a decent answer shortly.

Anyway in short: Yes it can!


Regds
jush



There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
User currently offlineAcabgd From Serbia, joined Jul 2005, 663 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9022 times:

AFAIK, no flaps, just slats are required.


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User currently offlineEaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1015 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9007 times:

But do airlines really do it given that it would cause passengers worry?

User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4695 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8976 times:



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 3):
But do airlines really do it given that it would cause passengers worry?

Yes, same with the Fokker 100's at KLM



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineAcabgd From Serbia, joined Jul 2005, 663 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8970 times:



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 3):
But do airlines really do it given that it would cause passengers worry?

I doubt more than 1% of passengers could point to flaps if asked what they are.



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User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17038 posts, RR: 66
Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8966 times:



Quoting Acabgd (Reply 5):
Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 3):
But do airlines really do it given that it would cause passengers worry?

I doubt more than 1% of passengers could point to flaps if asked what they are.

Indeed. Unlike us a.nutters, the average pax would not know what flaps are, let alone be able to point them out.  Wink



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineAVION826 From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8933 times:

Sure, because so many pax get frightened of how CRJ 200s take-off and land without SLATS!

User currently offlineSoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8834 times:

Thanks for the replies...all the A300 departures I have shot...all the trips I have had on A300...never seen a clean wing take off, excepting slats...I was very surprised to see this image...was on "the other" site.

User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8453 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8731 times:
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Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 3):
But do airlines really do it given that it would cause passengers worry?

I got that fright once flying SAA when they still had A300s, turned onto the runway and hit the gas with no flaps, I went ice cold inside but of course the flight went off without incident. It is quite unnerving if you are used to the sounds and sights pre-takeoff.



After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
User currently offlineTb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1597 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8528 times:

Yep, the purpose of a "0" Flap takeoff, at least on the plane I fly and I am sure the A300 for the most part as well, is to better meet the 2nd segment climb restrictions in the event you lose an engine.

A two-engine jet must be able to climb at 2.4% climb gradient on 1 engine in the 2nd segment which is the altitude of gear retraction to in my case, 1500' agl. With no flaps for takeoff, you need to rotate at a faster speed, thus using more runway, but you will have the speed in the case you lose an engine to be able to climb at your minimum climb gradient. It's a little more complicated than that because it's mostly a weight issue, but it is perfectly safe and normal in planes it is approved on.

I normally only have to use it when it starts getting warmer out at higher altitude airports at heavy weights. We rarely, if ever, have to do them at sea level airports but we can if we need/want to. I wish I had my takeoff numbers here at home to get specific weights and numbers for some good examples, I'll try and dig some up.



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineSDF880 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8515 times:

We do it daily with our 5X A300F's.

SDF880


User currently offlineTheGMan From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 668 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8457 times:

I experienced the same thing in a 767-200ER a couple weeks ago.

User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2898 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8383 times:

Same thing happened on a LH A300 I was on flying LIS-FRA. I was hoping they would do it and they did  Wink


I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7972 times:



Quoting Andz (Reply 9):
I got that fright once flying SAA when they still had A300s, turned onto the runway and hit the gas with no flaps, I went ice cold inside but of course the flight went off without incident. It is quite unnerving if you are used to the sounds and sights pre-takeoff.

LOL, I knew the a300 would take off with no flaps when I first flew it last week, and I still found it unnerving to see! Take off was like a rocket though...  Big grin



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User currently offlineSoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7581 times:



Quoting TheGMan (Reply 12):

Well you stole my wind!...my next ? was...do any Boeing designs meet this qualification...apparently so.

Does anyone think a 727/200 series is capable of departing MDW (Midway, Chicago) with clean wings?...and only 75 souls onboard?...i mean clean...no slats even!  Confused


User currently offlineTb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1597 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 7553 times:



Quoting Soon7x7 (Reply 15):
Does anyone think a 727/200 series is capable of departing MDW (Midway, Chicago) with clean wings?...and only 75 souls onboard?...i mean clean...no slats even!

No, not under any normal circumstances.



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineSoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 7535 times:



Quoting Tb727 (Reply 16):

Thats what I thought when the captain of our "KIWI" 727/200 announced we were next for the active runway and instructed the crew to take their seats, just as a Vanguard 727/200 was rolling down the runway for take off. I couldn't help but notice that the wings were still clean...like in 31,000 feet cruise clean!...I jumped out of my seat and walked briskly back to the two seated flight attendents already in their jump seat. Ignoring their commands to immedietely be seated, I leaned over and informed the male FA that the wings were not configured for take off...she (the female) FA kept yelling at me...the male FA grabbed the service phone to call the front office and what was music to my ears was the sound of those terrific noisy flap motors setting out flaps, not one notch, but two notches for take off. Later during the flight the male FA visually acknowledged and thanked me for my vigilence while the female of the species continued to lambaste me and reminded me that the crew in the cockpit had more than 30 years of experience...I then reminded her...so did the crew of the NW DC-9 that took off clean and killed everyone in Detroit, I also reminded her that circuit breakers exist and pilots dissable annoying audible warnings...True story...


User currently offlineTb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1597 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 7518 times:

Yeah, outta MDW a Flaps 15 takeoff would probably be the norm.


Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineOldtimer From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 191 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 7500 times:

I have done it on an AA 767 out of MAN to ORD, this not long after the Detroit accident. Not only was it flapless, but we did a downwind take off. Everything else was heading for what was the )^ but we headed for 24. I was sat near the rear of the a/c and only noticed the lack of flaps as we turned on to 24 and started to roll. We did a long roll but when we rotated, boy did we climb. Found out later is was because we were well loaded and because of the design of the 24/06 runway, you can claim more distance due to safety overrun at the 06 end and it gave us a better climb out margin in the event of an engine failure. Had me worried for a short while, but I did have my faith in those 767 drivers, and all went well for the rest of the flight. Did many a trip on the AA55/56 in those years 1987-1990 but this was the only flapless t/o I was ever on.


Oldtimer, I should have known better!
User currently offlineSoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 5 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7286 times:



Quoting Oldtimer (Reply 19):

Was that a 200 series or 3?...I've flown a lot on transport aircraft, with the exception of my above KIWI experience, never had clean wings on take off. Another exception is the F-100 and 28...just figured that was normal for them as I do see that quite often.


User currently offlineOldtimer From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 191 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6756 times:



Quoting Soon7x7 (Reply 20):

I honestly cannot remember if it was a 2 or 3 series, I cannot remember when they changed, maybe the AA members could put us right. I understand it was not a total clean wing ala F28 as slats would have been selected, obviously from where I sat, I could not see them on the B767



Oldtimer, I should have known better!
User currently offlineOly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6724 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6707 times:



Quoting Oldtimer (Reply 21):
I honestly cannot remember if it was a 2 or 3 series

Apart from a short period with an MD-11 this service has always been operated with a 763.



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offline7673mech From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 729 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6701 times:
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Quoting TheGMan (Reply 12):
I experienced the same thing in a 767-200ER a couple weeks ago.

Yes, Slats at 1 degree will give you that configuration. Leading edges down only.


User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3150 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6678 times:

The 170 will do take offs at flaps 1 as well. In this configuration the slats are extended but the flaps are not. It's used at high/hot airports for second segment climb. In a year of flying that plane I've only done it twice out of DEN on really hot days.


DMI
25 Oldtimer : I flew the route between 1985 and 1996 (1987 to 1990 on a monthly basis) and it was always a B767, never ever saw the AA MD11 at MAN
26 PGNCS : Really? You would know better than me, but I have sat in the back of a 50 seat CRJ literally hundreds (if not thousands) of times commuting and have
27 Brons2 : I flew a CO A300B4 once in 1994 and there was very, very minimal flap extension which freaked me out but we of course took off no problem.
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