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FAR 250 Knots  
User currently offlinePropilot83 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 598 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5605 times:

I know that under the Federal Air Regulation all airliners have to maintain an airspeed less than 250 knots below 10,000 ft. Is this the case also when airliners take-off and have to maintain an airspeed of no more than 250 knots until they climb over 10,000 ft? or does this FAR only apply to aircraft descending and ready to land?

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1597 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5586 times:

Any time below 10,000', climbing or descending. A few years ago in Houston they had no 250 knot restriction on speeds departing the Houston airports thinking it would help with traffic but they ended up scrapping the plan after a few months I think it was.


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User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5563 times:



Quoting Propilot83 (Thread starter):
I know that under the Federal Air Regulation all airliners have to maintain an airspeed less than 250 knots below 10,000 ft. Is this the case also when airliners take-off and have to maintain an airspeed of no more than 250 knots until they climb over 10,000 ft? or does this FAR only apply to aircraft descending and ready to land?

The 250 KIAS below 10,000' MSL applies to all aircraft with a few exceptions, not simply airliners.

Quoting Tb727 (Reply 1):
A few years ago in Houston they had no 250 knot restriction on speeds departing the Houston airports thinking it would help with traffic but they ended up scrapping the plan after a few months I think it was.

The Houston operational demonstration lasted from 1997ish IIRC, until the Tuesday after Super Bowl XXXVIII in 2004......moved alot of traffic very efficiently, safely, and expeditiously. "They" were told to stop the "No Speed Limit" when the waiver was rescinded by the FAA, it wasn't something Houston wanted to stop.  banghead 



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineTPA36R From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5554 times:

IAH,

Just so i canc onfirm this.....

on departure the aircraft has to maintain 250 knots OR the clean wing speed of the aircraft above 250 correct?


User currently offlineKlemmi85 From Germany, joined Mar 2009, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5541 times:

What exactly is this rule being made for? Because of noise reduction?

User currently offlineFutureUALpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2602 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5535 times:



Quoting TPA36R (Reply 3):
on departure the aircraft has to maintain 250 knots OR the clean wing speed of the aircraft above 250 correct?

No, its 250 below 10...period.



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User currently offlineBigSaabowski From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5531 times:



Quoting FutureUALpilot (Reply 5):
No, its 250 below 10...period.

No,
it's 250 knots, or the clean wing speed of the aircraft if above 250, after notifying ATC.


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5521 times:



Quoting BigSaabowski (Reply 6):
it's 250 knots, or the clean wing speed of the aircraft if above 250, after notifying ATC.

Correct.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5510 times:



Quoting Klemmi85 (Reply 4):
What exactly is this rule being made for? Because of noise reduction?

No, it is for traffic separation. Below 10,000 feet, there is usually a lot of traffic landing or departing, plus all of those VFR flights. Having the speed limit keeps closing speeds relatively slow, and keeps the situation from changing too quickly for ATC so they can react more easily to potential conflicts and I would think that having all planes on a level playing field makes sequencing easier.

I have heard of ATC giviing special permission to exceed 250 is some cases. I heard that they allowed a plane to fly faster due to an imminent thunderstorm. I don't know if that is strictly legal or not though.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21637 posts, RR: 55
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5506 times:



Quoting FutureUALpilot (Reply 5):
Quoting TPA36R (Reply 3):
on departure the aircraft has to maintain 250 knots OR the clean wing speed of the aircraft above 250 correct?

No, its 250 below 10...period.

No, he's right. It's 250 or minimum clean, whichever is higher.

Sec. 91.117

Aircraft speed.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).
(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.
(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).
(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.


Quoting Klemmi85 (Reply 4):
What exactly is this rule being made for? Because of noise reduction?

There are a lot of relatively slow VFR aircraft in the US below 10,000, and having everyone slow down helps people see and avoid each other.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
I have heard of ATC giviing special permission to exceed 250 is some cases. I heard that they allowed a plane to fly faster due to an imminent thunderstorm. I don't know if that is strictly legal or not though.

If it's an emergency situation, it's legal.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDescendVia From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5502 times:

As I know it only the 747 and A380 need high speed to get clean at high gross weights. Though once in a while CMS on say a 767 will approach 255 at MTOW.

There is also a waiver people have seemed to not bring up in this topic. The 250 below 10,000 is waived when your at least 12Nmiles away from U.S. shoreline. So unless otherwise stated on a chart or whatever, you can go above 250 without having to request it upon reaching the 12 mile limit.


User currently offlineDH106 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 626 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5499 times:



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 10):
As I know it only the 747 and A380 need high speed to get clean at high gross weights. Though once in a while CMS on say a 767 will approach 255 at MTOW.

Not flying anymore I know, but wasn't Concorde also exempt/waivered at high weights ?



...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate....
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5491 times:



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 10):
As I know it only the 747 and A380 need high speed to get clean at high gross weights. Though once in a while CMS on say a 767 will approach 255 at MTOW.

MD11's have been known to need a speed above 250 KIAS to get clean.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineKlemmi85 From Germany, joined Mar 2009, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5487 times:



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 12):
to get clean.

What does "to get clean" mean? Flaps fully retracted?


User currently offlineDescendVia From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5483 times:

Quoting Klemmi85 (Reply 13):
What does "to get clean" mean? Flaps fully retracted?

  

Quoting DescendVia (Reply 10):
767 will approach 255 at MTOW.

I was just doing some thinking....plus or minus 10 knots so were still good. I don't think the 767 CMS can get much more above 255 without taking off overweight.

[Edited 2009-04-28 08:14:17]

User currently offlineTPA36R From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5471 times:



Quoting Klemmi85 (Reply 13):

What does "to get clean" mean?

Yeah flaps/slats retracted.


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5459 times:



Quoting Klemmi85 (Reply 13):
What does "to get clean" mean? Flaps fully retracted?

Clean, the opposite of dirty.  Big grin  duck 



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5457 times:



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 2):
The 250 KIAS below 10,000' MSL applies to all aircraft with a few exceptions, not simply airliners.

I got to wondering where the 250 below 10 restriction originated, and having lived in Cincinnati in my youth, I then remembered this accident:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19670309-0

PROBABLE CAUSE: "The failure of the DC-9 crew to see and avoid the Beechcraft. Contributing to this cause were physiological and environmental conditions and the excessive speed of the DC-9 which reduced visual detection capabilities under an air traffic control system which was not designed or equipped to separate a mixture of controlled and uncontrolled traffic."

Follow-up / safety actions:
The NTSB suggested some changes in the air traffic control system . Also, the Board recommended the development of a practical Collision Avoidance System (CAS).
Following this accident the FAA issued Advisory Circular 90-32 titled 'Air traffic control and general operations, radar capabilities and limitations'. Also a rule was adopted establishing that all aircraft flying below 10,000ft msl will be limited to a maximum speed of 250kts effective December 15, 1967 to provide a more realistic 'see and avoid' environment.


Now, what I can't seem to remember is exactly when the Terminal Control Area (TCA) (Today's Class B airspace) first came into being. Was it as a result of the above 1967 mid-air as one of NTSB's "suggested changes in the air traffic control system", or did the TCA come into existence as a result of the 1978 PSA mid-air at SAN, or was it some other accident?


User currently offlineJgarrido From Guam, joined Mar 2007, 340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5441 times:



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 10):
So unless otherwise stated on a chart or whatever, you can go above 250 without having to request it upon reaching the 12 mile limit.

A lot of pilots forget/don't know about that part.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5417 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
If it's an emergency situation, it's legal.

The situation I heard about wasn't an emergency per se, but a large thunderstorm was about to hit as the flight was on approach and the controller let them go faster to beat it otherwise a diversion would have been likely.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5414 times:



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 17):
Now, what I can't seem to remember is exactly when the Terminal Control Area (TCA) (Today's Class B airspace) first came into being. Was it as a result of the above 1967 mid-air as one of NTSB's "suggested changes in the air traffic control system", or did the TCA come into existence as a result of the 1978 PSA mid-air at SAN, or was it some other accident?

Someone alot smarter than I will have to help with that question. I want to say TCA's were from the 1967 mid-air but really expanded to more airports after the PSA mid-air on SAN.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5409 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 19):
The situation I heard about wasn't an emergency per se, but a large thunderstorm was about to hit as the flight was on approach and the controller let them go faster to beat it otherwise a diversion would have been likely.

How do you know the controller let them exceed 250 KIAS below 10,000'?



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5401 times:



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 20):
Someone alot smarter than I will have to help with that question. I want to say TCA's were from the 1967 mid-air but really expanded to more airports after the PSA mid-air on SAN.

I think you may be right. Wasn't SAN an ARSA at the time of PSA accident?


User currently offlinePropilot83 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 598 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5371 times:

Thanks for all the info guys!

User currently offlineFutureUALpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2602 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5238 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
No, he's right. It's 250 or minimum clean, whichever is higher.

You are correct, I read what he wrote incorrectly...sorry about that!



Life is better when you surf.
25 LongHauler : The FARs that you quoted do not say minimum clean, it says minimum safe. There is a difference.
26 SLUAviator : An air traffic controller under no circumstances can give a pilot a clearance to violate an FAR. The FARs often include the "unless authorized the ad
27 Timz : That's what I've always wondered. Is it unsafe for a heavy to climb to 10000 ft with some flap out?
28 IAHFLYR : I wouldn't say it was unsafe but sure is not very efficient. Would you agree that a controller can authorize a speed greater than 250 KIAS below 10,0
29 SLUAviator : Yea. That would fall under the authorized by the administrator because the facility was given a waiver. An individual controller would not be able to
30 DescendVia : I disagree..... the controller can give the speed wavier just like other controllers around the world do. If they needed to get an administrator over
31 Vikkyvik : Can't think of a reason that it would be unsafe. It'd surely be inefficient, though, not to mention noisier, both as a result of more thrust required
32 Timz : Everyone agrees that controllers routinely authorize departures to exceed 250-- the question is, how is that legal, if safety isn't a factor and the
33 SLUAviator : I think you are misinterpreting FAR 91.117(d): "If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribe
34 Airbuske : Does the clean wing not produce enough lift at speeds lower than 250 KIAS?
35 Kimberlyrj : I am not sure if I understand... So if you have a Boeing 747-400 and its minimum clean wing speed is say 268kts – would ATC then allow the aircraft
36 IAHFLYR : You are correct, depending on the weight of the aircraft. Exactly, the crew normally tells the controller they have an operational need to climb at 2
37 DescendVia : That is what I said...... I was referencing that you fly into an out of the ORD area a lot like myself. I have heard 895 saying "request high speed"
38 P3Orion : What happens at ORD, with the heavies that need to go fast on departure, is the crew will either contact Clearence Delivery or Ground Metering and ad
39 DescendVia : OK that makes perfect sense and I do now remember hearing that over metering on one of my examples. Didn't even remember that, thanks for jogging the
40 Zappbrannigan : Around here, it's extremely common for instructions like "maintain maximum speed on descent, cancel speed restriction", or "requirement to reach XYZ
41 MD-90 : It's for safety with VFR aircraft operating on "see and avoid." It also doesn't apply when MOAs (military airspace) are hot.
42 IAHFLYR : In Class B airspace there is no need for that inefficient climb speed of 250 KIAS below 10,000' MSL....all controlled airspace.
43 Cpd : Concorde sometime received waivers to climb as quickly as they wished. I don't think that it actually needed to go faster than 250 before 10,000ft. I
44 PGNCS : Until you hit a bird. Correct; not at the heavy weights being discussed. Yes. Do you control the birds too?
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