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Non-ETOPS Delivery Flight  
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19926 posts, RR: 59
Posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6940 times:

I remember that when the 717's were delivered to HA, they had to put a fuel bladder in the cockpit to allow the planes to make to HNL.

Now, I can't imagine that the 717 is ETOPS-certified. With a range under 2,000 NM it wouldn't need to be.

So how did they get around that to fly it to Hawaii?

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6941 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
I remember that when the 717's were delivered to HA, they had to put a fuel bladder in the cockpit to allow the planes to make to HNL.

I'm pretty sure the fuel bladder is in the cabin, not the cockpit.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Now, I can't imagine that the 717 is ETOPS-certified. With a range under 2,000 NM it wouldn't need to be.

So how did they get around that to fly it to Hawaii?

It's not a revenue flight...FAR 125 doesn't apply.

Tom.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19926 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6931 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 1):

I'm pretty sure the fuel bladder is in the cabin, not the cockpit.

Sorry, typo.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 1):

It's not a revenue flight...FAR 125 doesn't apply.

So do you pay the pilots extra hazard pay or something?


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8630 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6916 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
So do you pay the pilots extra hazard pay or something?

Doc, all kinds of people -- in all kinds of planes -- fly over blue water. It's just, it is not considered safe enough for American commercial airline services (mainly to protect the passengers). A good example is corporate pilots. The Gulfstream does not have ETOPS certification (AFAIK) but since it is a private plane, you can fly it anywhere you please. You just can't operate an airline and sell tickets on such a flight. This isn't especially "dangerous," it just doesn't meet the super safety rules we have for commercial carriers.

Delivery flights by Boeing and Airbus also go over blue water. So the empty A320s and 737s can be seen doing pretty exotic overwater flights, even if they do not have ETOPS.


User currently offlineSoku39 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1797 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6908 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 1):

It's not a revenue flight...FAR 125 doesn't apply.

It's not scheduled either, so you might be able to fly under part 91, not completely sure about that though.



The Ohio Player
User currently offlineDescendVia From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6881 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):

So do you pay the pilots extra hazard pay or something?

They might get a little bump but again that is why airlines have "test" pilots, just for this type of work.

Quoting Soku39 (Reply 4):
It's not scheduled either, so you might be able to fly under part 91, not completely sure about that though.

Actually its part 25 IIRC for transport type jets.


User currently offlineCitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2444 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6736 times:

Quoting DescendVia (Reply 5):
Actually its part 25 IIRC for transport type jets.

You are confusing aircraft certification requirements with aircraft operational requirements. Part 25 are the certification requirements for the 717. The operational requirements for its commercial operations are Part 121, and for non-commercial operations (ferry in this case) is Part 91.

The plane is designed to Part 25, and that never changes. The aircraft can operate Part 91 and Part 121 the same day.

Here are some photos. Rather than fuel bladders, I would call them fuel tanks. The question I would have is how are these tanks entered into the fuselage? They seem too big to come thru the main entry door or emergency exit. Are they loaded partially assembled, and assembled inside the fuslage?


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Photo © AirNikon Collection-Pima Air and Space Museum



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Photo © AirNikon Collection-Pima Air and Space Museum



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Photo © AirNikon Collection-Pima Air and Space Museum



[Edited 2009-05-02 05:10:23]

[Edited 2009-05-02 05:16:19]


Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
User currently offlineOkie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3100 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6704 times:



Quoting CitationJet (Reply 6):
They seem too big to come thru the main entry door or emergency exit.

They are designed to fit through the passenger door. You just have to remember that the interior is removed in the area, including seats, bulkheads, front galley if it is in the way.
If you look closely even the overhead bins are missing, which I am not sure if they are removed for weight issues or clearance.

Okie


User currently offlineCitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2444 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6699 times:



Quoting Okie (Reply 7):
If you look closely even the overhead bins are missing

I guess the tanks must fit thru the main door, they just look pretty wide.

The overhead bins look like they are in place to me. The top photos show the overhead bins, with one bin door open.



Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
User currently offlineS.p.a.s. From Liechtenstein, joined Mar 2001, 967 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6561 times:



Quoting DescendVia (Reply 5):
It's not scheduled either, so you might be able to fly under part 91, not completely sure about that though.

All airline deliveries I have been involved the past 4 years were planned and executed as part91 flights, including the use of the plane registration as the flight call-sign. This was the case from new aircraft departing from Seattle and used ones departing from places like Singapore, Stansted and Taipei.

BTW, bizjets have no ETOPS certification, but planning over-water take ETPs into consideration.

Cheers
RS



"ad astra per aspera"
User currently offlineHa763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3663 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6549 times:
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Quoting CitationJet (Reply 6):
They seem too big to come thru the main entry door or emergency exit. Are they loaded partially assembled, and assembled inside the fuslage?

I have seen these tanks in person and they are around 30 inches wide and around 60 inches long. The 717 L1 door clearance is 34.7 inches and the floor is about 120 inches across. More than enough room to fit through the L1 door.


User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8455 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6507 times:
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You can go even smaller than that. My wife's uncle bought a King Air C-90 at Beech and it was flown from Wichita to Johannesburg. Okay, they didn't fly straight across the ocean but it did involve some extensive water hops.

There is even a picture of it in the database:


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Photo © Gary Shephard - LightSketch Photography




After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
User currently offlineAerdingus From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 2843 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6473 times:



Quoting Andz (Reply 11):
My wife's uncle bought a King Air C-90 at Beech and it was flown from Wichita to Johannesburg.

whoa! how long did that take?



Cabin crew blog http://dolefuldolegirl.blogspot.ie/
User currently offlineSasha From Russia, joined May 1999, 861 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6443 times:

Thinking of it - they do manage to somehow get Twotters, Q400s from North America to Europe and vice versa - Dornier 328 and ATRs  Smile


An2/24/28,Yak42,Tu154/134,IL18/62/96,B737/757/767,A310/320/319,F100,BAe146,EMB-145,CRJ,A340-600,B747-400,A-330-300,A-340
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25626 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6302 times:



Quoting Sasha (Reply 13):
Thinking of it - they do manage to somehow get Twotters, Q400s from North America to Europe and vice versa - Dornier 328 and ATRs

Canadian operator Kenn Borek Air (based in YYC) ferries several Twin Otters every year between the Canadian Arctic region where they often operate on skis at temperatures of -40 or -50C all the way to the Maldives, where the aircraft and crews operate on floats for Maldivian Air Taxi. Assuming they start at their home base in YYC, with all the fuel stops needed that's a trip of roughly 10,000 nm.

Kenn Borek DHC-6s have frequently landed at both the North and South Poles. Second photo below shows two of them at the South Pole.Their fleet includes almost 40 Twin Otters.


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Photo © Jason Pineau
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Photo © Ddphotos



And in the Maldives in slightly more tropical surroundings.


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Photo © Ralf Meyermann



A Kenn Borek Twin Otter (with Maldivian Air Taxi markings; they're re-registered in the Maldives during those wetlease operations) arriving at BHX from KEF during one of its long ferry flights, with another 5,000 nm or so to go..


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Photo © Dave Sturges



User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19926 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6126 times:



Quoting CitationJet (Reply 6):

Thank you very much for posting those pics! Very informative!  thumbsup 


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