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New Video Of Spiroids Emerges-What's Their Status?  
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5881 times:
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John Croft of FlightGlobal just shot a video of a video playing at Aviation Partners' booth at the European Business Aviation Association's annual exhibition in Geneva this week:

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/as-the-croft-flies/2009/05/gratzers-spiroids-in-flight.html

So it seems that Aviation Partners is actively promoting spiroids....yet it's virtually impossible to find any additional information about the program or its status. Their website simply says "Stay tuned for more developments on this promising technology".

Has anyone seen any additional news and/or updates on their progress with spiroids?

2H4


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19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePart147 From Ireland, joined Dec 2008, 532 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5874 times:

Looks like an interesting technology...

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...piroid-wingtip-technology-the.html

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5102068.html

If it's so good though, why hasn't it been included on any of the newer designs? After all it's been around for 15 years now!



It's better to ask a stupid question during training, rather than make a REALLY stupid mistake later on!
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5869 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
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Quoting Part147 (Reply 1):
If it's so good though, why hasn't it been included on any of the newer designs? After all it's been around for 15 years now!

I suppose because 1) they own the patent, and 2) it hasn't been their top priority.

2H4



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User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5865 times:



Quoting Part147 (Reply 1):
If it's so good though, why hasn't it been included on any of the newer designs? After all it's been around for 15 years now!

Yeah really. you'd think the massive 10% improvement would certainly justify any additional costs over normal winglets/wing fence/blended winglets.


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5857 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 3):
Yeah really. you'd think the massive 10% improvement would certainly justify any additional costs over normal winglets/wing fence/blended winglets.

Perhaps they offer huge improvements in certain (ie:cruise) segments of flight, but produce huge problems in others. In which case, they would have presumably been working on minimizing the problem areas.

2H4



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User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3848 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5810 times:



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 4):
but produce huge problems in others.

I'm guessing structural strenght problems, weight, and maybe icing. It looks like a pretty frail structure exposed to a lot of aerodynamic stress...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineFaro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5496 times:



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 5):
I'm guessing structural strenght problems, weight, and maybe icing. It looks like a pretty frail structure exposed to a lot of aerodynamic stress...

Perhaps if it were make of CFRP the structural issues would largely be put to rest. Would such a CFRP structure easily be de-iced however?

Faro



The chalice not my son
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 5394 times:



Quoting Faro (Reply 6):
Would such a CFRP structure easily be de-iced however?

Why would you need to? We generally don't deice winglets today.

Tom.


User currently offlineFaro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5320 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 7):
Why would you need to? We generally don't deice winglets today.

You're abosolutely right, never thought about that! Is it because of the thinness of the head-on airfoil section? Too little head-on surface & too great a curvature for the droplets to adhere to?

I'm guessing that one of the problems with these devices may be the behaviour of the air inside the closed loop section, caught between closely-spaced aerodynamic surfaces. Perhaps leading to a resonance of sorts at certain airspeed/AOA/sideslip combinations.

Faro



The chalice not my son
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9240 posts, RR: 76
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5309 times:



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 2):

I suppose because 1) they own the patent,

My experience with patents was that the validity period for exclusivity for the patent was 15 years, which would have expired in 2007 if it was obtained in 1992. I am assuming then they have come up with a novel change to the device.

Quoting Faro (Reply 8):

You're abosolutely right, never thought about that! Is it because of the thinness of the head-on airfoil section? Too little head-on surface & too great a curvature for the droplets to adhere to?

Two reasons I can think of, the angle they have o the vertical would not normally allow slow to rest on them, and no fuel being inside them, so in a humid place, unlike a wing with super cooled fuel, frost should not form on them.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineFaro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5284 times:



Quoting Zeke (Reply 9):
Two reasons I can think of, the angle they have o the vertical would not normally allow slow to rest on them, and no fuel being inside them, so in a humid place, unlike a wing with super cooled fuel, frost should not form on them.

Indeed that takes care of snow and frost; what about supercooled water droplets in the atmosphere?

Faro



The chalice not my son
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9240 posts, RR: 76
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5276 times:



Quoting Faro (Reply 10):
Indeed that takes care of snow and frost; what about supercooled water droplets in the atmosphere?

That is not a trivial observation, and it would require testing/validation. I would think due to the size of them compared to the wing it would not be significant enough, and one would need to assume it is a symmetrical effect.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 5218 times:



Quoting Faro (Reply 8):
Is it because of the thinness of the head-on airfoil section? Too little head-on surface & too great a curvature for the droplets to adhere to?

I strongly suspect they'd ice, I just don't think it would matter. You would have to prove this as part of the flight test program, of course. Most of the lift on a commercial airliner wing is generated well inboard. The impact on lift, and the amount of ice weight you can gain, would be pretty limited out on the wingtip. Even on airplanes without winglets, the anti-ice usually doesn't extend all the way to the tip.

Tom.


User currently offlineFaro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 5172 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 12):
I strongly suspect they'd ice, I just don't think it would matter. You would have to prove this as part of the flight test program, of course

What about the flutter characteristics of the wingtip/winglet with a mass of ice parasiting their surfaces? Would certification testing also include that scenario or do the authorities assume that icing is always temporary?

Faro



The chalice not my son
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 5157 times:



Quoting Faro (Reply 13):
What about the flutter characteristics of the wingtip/winglet with a mass of ice parasiting their surfaces?

That's a really good question. My immediate suspicion is that wingtip icing isn't a critical flutte condition because of two factors:
1) Icing tends to reduce lift, which tends to reduce the force on the wingtip, making flutter less likely
2) The mass of ice a wingtip could accumulate is, I suspect, much lower than the mass change associated with full vs. empty fuel tanks.

However, that's just wild guesses...I've never come anywhere close to doing a flutter-in-icing analysis, so I really don't know. Empirically, it doesn't seem to be a big deal with winglets because we don't anti-ice them now, but that might be different for spiroids.

Quoting Faro (Reply 13):
Would certification testing also include that scenario or do the authorities assume that icing is always temporary?

You need to be able to maintain safe fight and landing in known icing conditions. However, I don't believe there's a requirement that, if you're in bad icing, you stay in it. You have to remain safe long enough to land or climb back above the icing conditions.

Tom.


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4987 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

New info, courtesy of John Croft at FlightGlobal:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Aviation Partners plans to fly its second-generation spiroid winglets on a company Dassault Falcon 50 in the third quarter. The flight is part of the $2 million earmark the company received last year to further investigate the novel devices, in part to analyse the potential for reducing aircraft separation distances.

API founder and president Joe Clark says the new spiroids, now in design, are likely to eliminate wingtip vortices in the near field region, although the effects in the far-field, roughly 4.6-5.6km (2.5-3nm) behind the aircraft, will have to be determined by test. API plans to equip its Dassault Falcon 50 with the devices as part of the research programme, which is being managed by the US Department of Transportation's Research and Innovative Technology Administration (Rita).

Aside from aerodynamic performance, Thompson says there remain "significant" manufacturing challenges in building a structure that will be stiff enough to be aerodynamically correct through all flight regimes, but also economical to manufacture.

Engineers are investigating a variety of materials, from composites to metal, from which the looping wingtips might be constructed. A vendor has not yet been selected to build the devices for flight tests that are expected to begin in the summer or early autumn, says Thompson.


Full article here
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Does anyone know where that Falcon will be based? A shot of it with spiroids fitted would be one heck of a catch!

2H4



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User currently offlineFaro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4956 times:



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 15):
Aviation Partners plans to fly its second-generation spiroid winglets on a company Dassault Falcon 50 in the third quarter. The flight is part of the $2 million earmark the company received last year to further investigate the novel devices, in part to analyse the potential for reducing aircraft separation distances.

API founder and president Joe Clark says the new spiroids, now in design, are likely to eliminate wingtip vortices in the near field region, although the effects in the far-field, roughly 4.6-5.6km (2.5-3nm) behind the aircraft, will have to be determined by test. API plans to equip its Dassault Falcon 50 with the devices as part of the research programme, which is being managed by the US Department of Transportation's Research and Innovative Technology Administration (Rita).

Aside from aerodynamic performance, Thompson says there remain "significant" manufacturing challenges in building a structure that will be stiff enough to be aerodynamically correct through all flight regimes, but also economical to manufacture.

Engineers are investigating a variety of materials, from composites to metal, from which the looping wingtips might be constructed. A vendor has not yet been selected to build the devices for flight tests that are expected to begin in the summer or early autumn, says Thompson.

Wow, thanx for the feedback!! Looks like we may well be looking at operational spiroidesque wings sometime in the (perhaps distant) future.

Faro



The chalice not my son
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20362 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4844 times:

The articles say that a spiroid wing combined with a new-gen engine like the GTF or LEAP could knock 22-25% off fuel burn without even considering other advances like changes to the airframe.

Ka-wow.


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3712 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

Well well well....look what's listed on the list of visiting aircraft at Oshkosh Airventure 2010:

- Falcon with spiroid winglets



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User currently offlinePart147 From Ireland, joined Dec 2008, 532 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3343 times:

Well caught 2H4!!!

And here they are on A.net...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Melvin Pereira



Impressive!

[Edited 2010-07-29 14:15:30]


It's better to ask a stupid question during training, rather than make a REALLY stupid mistake later on!
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