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Full Flap Landings  
User currently offlineC5LOAD From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 917 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9460 times:

Do airlines use FULL flap landings? The trips I have flown on civilian-wise i watch when they put the flaps down, and I have never seen them down fully, they are more like halfway. Any ideas or do they always use them full?


"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
67 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9429 times:

I think that most, if not all airliners can, but only some do. A 737 for example can use flaps 40 to land, but 30 is used most often if I'm not mistaken. I think that generally there are several flaps settings that can be used on landing, or takeoff for that matter.


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21571 posts, RR: 55
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9416 times:

Some do, some don't. It depends on the airline, the airplane, and the situation.

They will be more than halfway down, though.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9365 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 2):
Some do, some don't. It depends on the airline, the airplane, and the situation.

Pilots seem to use a lot of flap when landing in San Diego. The runway is short with a displaced threshold, there are obstructions all around and water at the end of the runway. There are also no high-speed turnouts from the runway. I have seen may flights go-around at this airport as well.


User currently offlineC5LOAD From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 917 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9351 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 2):
It depends on the airline, the airplane, and the situation

Wouldn't it make sense to use full flap in order to make sure you are going slow when you cross the threshold, then you wouldn't have to use as much brake nor t/r right?



"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
User currently offlineCvervais From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 610 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9308 times:

I think the most amazing full flap landing I've seen was in a AA 772 landing at SJC. I was in seat 31A and I was amazed how low the flaps went. It was great.

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21571 posts, RR: 55
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9276 times:



Quoting C5LOAD (Reply 4):
Wouldn't it make sense to use full flap in order to make sure you are going slow when you cross the threshold, then you wouldn't have to use as much brake nor t/r right?

Yes. It also increases drag, which increases the thrust required on final, which increases noise (makes nearby residents unhappy) and fuel burn (which makes the airline bean counters unhappy). So if you have a nice long runway where you don't need to stop in a hurry, it might make sense to use a lower flap setting.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4454 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9232 times:



Quoting Cvervais (Reply 5):
I think the most amazing full flap landing I've seen was in a AA 772 landing at SJC. I was in seat 31A and I was amazed how low the flaps went. It was great.

Ditto. Whenever I don't get any upgrades on AA 772s, I pick row 27 which is right behind the wing and man, those flaps sure do extend far during landing!


User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1984 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9205 times:

The DC-10 actually has an impressive amount of flap! If by full flap you mean 90 degrees, no aircraft (that I know of) uses that much. Commonly the most you will see is 60 and those are rarely used. It will depend on the situation as to how much to use.


Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9115 times:

If they have enough runway, most planes will try to maintain a certain speed until over the threshold - to keep the pattern and separation for different types even.

But I'd bet all jets use full flaps at places like SBRJ - Santo Dumas - places with 4,000 - 4,500 foot long runways.


User currently offlineChrisjw From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9074 times:

Does anyone know which airplane has the highest flap setting possible?

User currently offlineMPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 991 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9024 times:

I wanna say there is a Federal Aviation Regulation that says that pilots should use the least amount of flaps to make a safe landing. Don't quote me on that though I don't recall where I read that.

When your landing on a 10000' runway you have plenty of room and no need to stop super quick. Whereas on a shorter runway full flaps are required just to stop on the runway. It just kind of depends.



One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
User currently offlineStillageek From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8996 times:

On the CRJ700 we always use Flaps 45 for landing...every landing...every runway...every condition. On the ERJ's at my airline they are approved for reduced flap landings...I think they can land at flaps 22 instead of 45.

User currently offlinePhxpilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 80 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8927 times:



Quoting Stillageek (Reply 12):
On the CRJ700 we always use Flaps 45 for landing...every landing...every runway...every condition

Are you sure you don't use Flaps 20 for single-engine approaches?


User currently offlineModesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2795 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8888 times:

At my airline, we generally use full flaps (flaps 45) when landing the EMB145. At one point, the airline started an initiative to use flaps 22 landings as a method to save fuel with lower power settings on final approach. However, brakes wear obviously increased with the higher approach and landing speeds so eventually, the policy reverted to the original flaps 45 practice. Now, we mostly use flaps 45, but certain circumstances like strong crosswinds or high potential for windshear may dictate a flaps 22 landing.

I sit in a lot of 737 and 757 jumpseats and as others have said, most 737 landings use flaps 30 while the full flap setting is flaps 40. The maximum 757 flaps setting is flaps 30 and most 757 landings that I've seen use this setting.

As a general rule of thumb, most operations dictate full or close to full flap settings for landing, but operational considerations may dictate otherwise.


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8768 times:



Quoting Chrisjw (Reply 10):
Does anyone know which airplane has the highest flap setting possible?

Do you mean highest = highest number, or highest = highest deflection? It's been a long time, for some OEM's, since the flap setting actually corresponded to the flap angle in degrees.

Tom.


User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9946 posts, RR: 26
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8718 times:
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Quoting Eghansen (Reply 3):
Pilots seem to use a lot of flap when landing in San Diego. The runway is short with a displaced threshold, there are obstructions all around and water at the end of the runway. There are also no high-speed turnouts from the runway. I have seen may flights go-around at this airport as well.

I wouldn't classify SAN as having a "short" runway. From the displaced threshold, you still have over 7500 feet of landing distance. With a typical 950 foot glide, that's 6500 feet of landing rollout distance.

Airliners, for most intents and purposes, can stop on a dime if needed. That's relatively speaking - taking into consideration how little actual braking surface they have compared to their weight. Airliner wheel brakes are worked extremely hard, and they do an amazing job (consider how much energy they have to absorb to actually stop an airplane).

Check out the FAR landing distances for the 747-400 (starts on the 36th page of the PDF):

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/7474sec3.pdf

Notice that at Maximum Landing Weight at sea level (pressure altitude), dry runway, and flaps 25, the 747-400 requires just under 7500' runway. At flaps 30 (full flaps), it needs about 6800'.

And you're generally not going to be landing at MLW anyway.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8702 times:

First are you sure you could tell flaps 35 from flaps 50 (MD-11)? Second for us flaps 50 is more stress on the flaps and airframe and only reduces ldg roll by about 500'. You don't use 50 flaps in high or gusty winds and Vapp isn't much lower. For CATIII you have slightly better angle of vision because of lower deck angle and is recommended.

User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8693 times:



Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 16):
And you're generally not going to be landing at MLW anyway.

You will if you do any flying in a 744F!


User currently offlineStillageek From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8573 times:



Quoting Phxpilot (Reply 13):

Ok I thought about this after I posted. For every "normal" landing we use flaps 45.


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8564 times:



Quoting Chrisjw (Reply 10):
Does anyone know which airplane has the highest flap setting possible?

50 degrees on DC-8 and DC-10 is the most I have seen.


User currently offlineJoseKMLB From United States of America, joined May 2008, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8505 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
So if you have a nice long runway where you don't need to stop in a hurry, it might make sense to use a lower flap setting.

Here in MLB our main runway is 10,000+ feet and when the land on 9R almost 99% of the time they will roll all the way down to the end since that is where the terminal is to make less taxi time.


User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9946 posts, RR: 26
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8466 times:
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Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 18):
You will if you do any flying in a 744F!

Interesting. What's the reasoning behind that? Just the fact that they pack it to the gills full of cargo?



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8451 times:



Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 22):
Interesting. What's the reasoning behind that? Just the fact that they pack it to the gills full of cargo?

The more cargo they carry, the more revenue that's generated. That's why there are tech stops enroute when the same type aircraft can carry a pax load non-stop. Cargo doesn't care about enroute time.....


User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1984 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8424 times:

Well I know its not a big airplane - but the C305 has flaps 60  Smile, when you take the power off it drops like a rock.


Keep the shinny side up!
25 Post contains images Viscount724 : Maximum flap setting on the De Havilland Comet appears to be more than 50 degrees. Not sure what the actual number was.
26 PGNCS : DC-9 as well, although the 50 degree stop is almost always blocked off now for noise purposes. MD-80 max is 40; some L-1011's had 42, but we used 33
27 Post contains images Vikkyvik : Gotcha. So you're typically flying somewhere on your "max payload" line, as opposed to "max fuel volume"? That is amazing. I've also always found the
28 Airbuster : 25 or 42 on the F70 & 100...with or without speedbrake deployed. MD11 has 50 max, those really are huge barn doors and generate some noticibale buffet
29 113312 : All McDonnell-Douglas jets have 50 degrees as the "Full Flap" setting. However, many operators encourage use of Flap 35 for landing as it places less
30 Flaps30 : I always thought that the flap setting on arriving aircraft was mainly used to keep up sufficient lift while on the lower speeds of an approach. I di
31 WILCO737 : The flaps are used to reduce the approach speed and with a lower approach speed the stopping distance on the runway will be shorter as well. The spoi
32 Flaps30 : I find It interesting that when the spoilers are deployed upon landing, they are used to kill the lift. But when the spoilers are deployed during app
33 Tdscanuck : Different spoilers (on some aircraft), or different settings for the same spoilers (on others), or some combination thereof. You generally don't depl
34 WILCO737 : There are 2 sorts of spoiles. The Speedbrake in flight and the ground spoiler. You will not deply all the ground spoilers inflight. The speedbrake af
35 ThePinnacleKid : Two completely different things actually.... There are two different panels that raise up on the wings of most commercial jets... typically they are
36 Jetlagged : There is no real difference. Spoilers decrease lift and increase drag whether in flight or on ground. (They change pitching moment too as a matter of
37 Vikkyvik : This might be a bit misleading - on many aircraft, the flight spoilers use some of the spoiler panels, with less-than-full deflection, while ground s
38 Post contains links and images Fghtngsiouxatc : I always thought that full flaps on the DC9 was pretty amazing, and then realized they aren't even FULL! I wonder what those flaps look like at 50! He
39 474218 : Any time a spoiler panel is deployed/extended it reduces/spoils the lift. That is why its called a spoiler. There are at least two other types of spo
40 BMI727 : The Mitsubishi MU-2 and later B-52s for example. Usually seen at low speeds. Watch them during a crosswind landing; they get quite a workout. I recen
41 JoeCanuck : Roll spoilers can greatly increase roll effectiveness by augmenting the ailerons. They also reduce adverse yaw created by large aileron deflections. I
42 Jetlagged : Deploying the speedbrakes means the engines can remain above idle and so are already spooled up in case of go-around. The tail speedbrake is also a v
43 CosmicCruiser : The HS-125 I used to fly had spoilers and the procedure was on ldg to "lift" the spoiler handle pull it full aft and down and this drove the spoilers
44 Post contains links Viscount724 : Accidental deployment of the ground spoilers at about 60 ft.on final approach to YYZ caused the loss of an almost brand-new AC DC-8-63 in 1971. All 1
45 PGNCS : That is incorrect for the aircraft I have flown; on the aircraft I have flown roll spoiler augmentation is available full time. It's very high drag,
46 OffshoreAir : I did my flight training there, and when we use to come in on 9R/27L we use to request "long landing" to shorten our taxi time. We would rocket in on
47 Pihero : All the Boeings from the 727 onwards and all the Airbuses use some of the spoilers asymmetrically for roll augmentation at all times. Don't remember
48 BMI727 : That is what I thought but I wasn't sure. I think that is correct. But usually when the flaps are retract the aircraft is flying fast enough that the
49 474218 : Direct Lift Control (DLC) on the L-1011 positions spoilers 1-4 to a new null point (7 or 9 degrees up depending on the model) whenever the flaps are
50 Klemmi85 : Just some general question here... If ground spoilers are fully deployed, is lift reduced as much as there wasn't enough to keep it airborne at any ti
51 Pihero : You're wrong on two accounts : 1/- As previously said, most airliners use some of the spoilers for roll augmentation, regardless of the flap setting.
52 PGNCS : You know I had forgotten that, thanks for the memory jog! Unfortunately I haven't touched an L-1011 since 2001! Long live the Tristar!
53 Klemmi85 : So it's basically right what I read a while ago that leveling on assigned altitude is slowed down a thousand feet before magenta turns to white in or
54 BMI727 : Isn't that what I said?
55 David L : It might have been what you meant to say, however... ... it didn't entirely come over that way. Plus trying to avoid stretching the passengers' cheek
56 Klemmi85 : Okay thanks
57 BMI727 : I guess I wasn't clear enough. I should have said that roll spoilers are seen more often when the flaps are extended, though the two are not necessar
58 David L : At lower speeds more deflection is required for the same effect from any control surface but I'd be tempted to believe Pihero and PGNCS. Apparently p
59 Post contains images 2H4 : I do not, but I can think of some contenders: 2H4
60 WILCO737 : Wow, these flaps travel that far that they are more than 90° downwards... I guess this is the highest flap setting wilco737
61 Pihero : In the case of the Breguet 941 (the bottom picture), the setting of the inner flap aft panel was 97° relative to the wing. On this subject of "angle
62 2H4 : The load on the horizontal stab must have been immense. 2H4
63 Pihero : Good point. Look at the tailplane inverted airfoil .
64 JoeCanuck : Most of the stall reduction comes from the first notch of flaps. Excess flap means more drag in relation to lift, which allows for a steeper approach
65 MSNDC9 : That's more tied to what used to be a 3.5 degree LOC approach slope from 10 miles. They recently dropped the pattern altitude and pushed out the deci
66 2H4 : Welcome to A.net! 2H4
67 Pilotpip : For the first question. Both jets I've flown will not allow the speedbrakes to be deployed with the flaps higher than an intermediate setting. 9 degr
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