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Can You Maintain Altitude At A 90 Degree Bank?  
User currently offlineUhntissbaby111 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 18 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6776 times:

Me and my roommates just got into an argument about whether a plane can maintain altitude while in a 90 degree bank? I dont think the plane could because there would be no vertical component of lift to keep the plane at a constant altitude. But then i confused myself and realized, that you could use rudder to keep the nose up and use the vertical component of thrust to keep the plane up? Also, the main plane we talked about was an F-16. So, could an F-16 do it? And if not, can any plane do it?


Adam

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 6759 times:

Quoting Uhntissbaby111 (Thread starter):
Also, the main plane we talked about was an F-16. So, could an F-16 do it? And if not, can any plane do it?

I don't believe so because the like you side nearly all lifting devises lose lift at 90 degrees. Can stay at altitude briefly, bu I don't think you can maintain altitude for very long. Have you ever scene a plane at an airshow stay on it's side for very long? As in extended periods of time, not just in a hard bank? I mean flying a straight path on it's side and maintaining it for long.

[Edited 2009-06-16 12:25:37]


We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9905 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 6749 times:
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Quoting Uhntissbaby111 (Thread starter):
Me and my roommates just got into an argument about whether a plane can maintain altitude while in a 90 degree bank? I dont think the plane could because there would be no vertical component of lift to keep the plane at a constant altitude. But then i confused myself and realized, that you could use rudder to keep the nose up and use the vertical component of thrust to keep the plane up? Also, the main plane we talked about was an F-16. So, could an F-16 do it? And if not, can any plane do it?

Yes, an F-16 theoretically could, because it has a thrust-to-weight ratio greater than 1.

That thrust, plus whatever lift the fuselage might give you in a 90-degree bank, probably allows it to do so. You sure do see them do plenty of 90-degree-bank turns at air shows and such.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineDaBuzzard From Canada, joined Sep 2007, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 6726 times:

High performance aircraft (like fighters or acrobatic specials) certainly can maintain altitude in knife edge flight. Don't think I would want to try it with a 172....or a 747  

Excess thrust plus the lift from the side of the fuselage and the vertical (now horizontal) stab will do the trick.

This of course is all dependant on the fuel system being able to keep the engines fed.....

[Edited 2009-06-16 13:00:09]

User currently offlineZotan From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 609 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 6647 times:

It's definitely possible. The rudder more or less acts as the elevator.

User currently offlineAirbuske From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 466 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 6637 times:

Come on guys, I thought we are supposed to be aviation enthusiasts?

I suggest you look up some performances by the Blue Angels. They routinely perform knife edge passes.


User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1984 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 6596 times:

Yes it is very possible. Even a super decathlon can maintain level flight at 90 degrees. All you do is put it on it's side and have the nose high relative to the tail.


Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week ago) and read 6578 times:



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 6):
Yes it is very possible. Even a super decathlon can maintain level flight at 90 degrees. All you do is put it on it's side and have the nose high relative to the tail.

I stand corrected in my initial post. That is interesting.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently onlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2421 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6531 times:

Don't try it in a B-52......


oh boy!!!
User currently offlineBrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3010 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6486 times:



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 8):
Don't try it in a B-52......

with very slow airspeed and close to the ground...



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6336 times:

Quoting Uhntissbaby111 (Thread starter):
So, could an F-16 do it?

The Thunderbirds do it every time in their airshow performances.

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 2):
Yes, an F-16 theoretically could, because it has a thrust-to-weight ratio greater than 1.

That would have nothing to do with it if the thrust is still being put out on a horizontal vector. It just has enough rudder authority and speed to do so.

While a C172 has barely any rudder movement/authority, If you could get it to fly fast enough eventually theoretically the lift vector created by the rudder would be sufficient to keep it in level flight.

Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 6):
Even a super decathlon can maintain level flight at 90 degrees.

   Yup. Been there done that. The Decat has a huge and very powerful rudder. On a good day you can get it to climb in knife-edge.

Quoting Brons2 (Reply 9):
with very slow airspeed and close to the ground...

and lots of fuel...   

[Edited 2009-06-17 12:00:01]

User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2546 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6315 times:



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 10):
That would have nothing to do with it if the thrust is still being put out on a horizontal vector. It just has enough rudder authority and speed to do so.

While a C172 has barely any rudder movement/authority, If you could get it to fly fast enough eventually theoretically the lift vector created by the rudder would be sufficient to keep it in level flight.

I assume you mean that the rudder creates a yaw angle which in turn creates fuselage lift (i.e. sideforce). The rudder has to produce downward force to generate the yaw angle, so is reducing lift. Engine thrust tilted down by the yaw adds to the lift. Rudder authority is important to create the necessary yaw angle to create fuselage lift.



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offlineWingscrubber From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 848 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6306 times:

I believe the term is 'knife edge', I've seen pitts specials and extras do it at airshows, also they have to briefly knife edge between the pylons in the red bull air races.


Resident TechOps Troll
User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6301 times:

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 11):

I assume you mean that the rudder creates a yaw angle which in turn creates fuselage lift (i.e. sideforce).

Yeah that's what I was going for. Thanks for polishing my statement.  

By the way, the GeeBee was capable of flying in knife edge with barely any rudder input whatsoever, which is understandable since it had more fuselage area than wing area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gee_Bee_R-1

[Edited 2009-06-17 13:05:55]

User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6272 times:
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Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 13):
By the way, the GeeBee was capable of flying in knife edge with barely any rudder input whatsoever, which is understandable since it had more fuselage area than wing area.

Also, the GeeBee was more stable inverted than it was when flying right side up.

Delmar Benjamin's announcer spoke of this as though it was something to be proud of, but I think most would consider it a not-insignificant design flaw.

2H4



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6220 times:



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 14):
Also, the GeeBee was more stable inverted than it was when flying right side up.

Hmm I actually didn't know that, but taking a second look at it now it makes sense, those wings are really low and the fuselage pretty tall, guess the CG must be high up there.


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